Excargodog

It's an interesting situation and I seem to be seeing more and more of it. OK, $50 an hour definitely ain't mainline wages, but with signing and retention bonuses and everything it can get you pretty close to the median family income of $57K, especially if you have a sideline gig during your 14 days off a month. And heck, if you've got a working spouse you are going to be solidly upper middle class in much of the country. So having sat through reserve as a junior FO, you make the decision that you aren't going to do that again. OK, EVENTUALLY you are going to need to upgrade to get your TPIC before you flow, but that's still years off. By deferring that upgrade for a year or so, you can not just enjoy the scheduling advantages of being a senior FO in the domicile you want to be at, but when you eventually do upgrade you'll skip the reserve cr@p that the junior captain historically had to put up with. And after all. The real prize is the "upgrade" to the majors, which with the flow you will eventually get anyway.

Of course the problem from the management standpoint is that they can't run an airline without captains, so they post openings and put up some serious signing bonuses for direct entry captains.

Now the good news for those who go that route is that the money is decent - between the sign on bonus and the captain pay anyone with 1000 hrs of 121 time can likely get $100K the first year, but the downside of course is that you are going to spend most of that year - and possibly a couple others - on reserve, getting minimum but worse yet flying minimum hours - before you even get a line, after which time you may still be jumped over for base preference and bidding seniority by those people who just hung out as senior FOs for a year or two. Eventually, I suppose, the flow will even get down to the DECs, but only after they've spent a whole long time doing the cr@p jobs.

So is it just my perception that this is becoming more common and that regional's with flow seem to be driving this phenomenon? Because the whole deferred upgrade thing seems like the sort of thing the majors would want to discourage, not encourage.

It conveys a sort of path of least effort approach to becoming a mainline Pilot that I'm not sure if the mainline's really want.

rickair7777

Generally, based on years of experience...

Do not defer upgrade, or any other career-progression step, until you have reached your career-destination major. Obvious exception for extreme family/personal circumstances, but every delay costs you big bucks down the road, and if the music were to stop for some reason the delay might be longer than you expected.

Specifically...

Deferred upgrades have always been a thing, just depends on folks' priorities. I can see how AA flow could make that appealing, and that might actually makes sense, because if the music stops and you can't upgrade, well you probably weren't going to flow soon anyway.

But for everyone else, I wouldn't risk it. You could get stuck, and it's also something the top-tier majors will consider... DAL likes "career progression", with no time out to smell the roses. Why, I don't know since this is not a typical career and it does not benefit the company if all of their pilots take every available increase in category and status at the first opportunity... in fact that costs them a lot of money. Also not really a fair metric since many folks got stuck through no fault of their own. Maybe they're looking for pilots who would rather fly than be home with their family.

Right now I'd be more concerned with "career progression" perceptions than the music stopping. Just keep ripping the bandaids off and pretty soon you'll wake up in a very happy place.

DarkSideMoon

How do they even know? Upgrade at company A is 1,000 121 and upgrade at company B is 4-5 years. Do they honestly expect people to quit company B and go to company A because they have 1,000 121 and can’t upgrade?

rickair7777

They don't seem to care about your personal problems. Like I said above it's not really fair. But they don't have to be fair. Too many people need to get that little fact of life into their heads... it will prevent disappointment and help you make rational decisions based on a rational world-view (as opposed to the everything is fair and everyone will get a trophy regardless world-view).

That said, whether you quit your job is up to you. Financially it would be worth it in the long run if you do DEC now vs. waiting years for upgrade... and I'm not talking about regional airline finances, I'm talking major airline pay down the road. I don't think one year makes a difference to recruiters, but five years might. It sure did for my generation... most of them are too old, too stale, no recent type ratings, going nowhere fast at M.074

DarkSideMoon

I’m not complaining that it’s unfair, it’s just frustrating when airlines choose to prefer things that in other businesses would be a negative. I was thinking hopping around like that would look like you lack follow through and company loyalty. I honestly appreciate the insight. I’m happy to play the game, the rules are just funny or secret sometimes.

Excargodog

From YOUR application alone, they might not be able to know. But they don't get just yours, they get LOTS of applications from your coworker's, and it would be unreasonable to expect they wouldn't be bright enough to determine what seniority your regional required for upgrade and whether or not you upgraded within a few months of your eligibility. In fact I can almost hear the interview question:

"I note from your employment date and SIC times that you sat in the right seat for nearly two years after you had seniority enough to upgrade, new hire candidate Smith. Was that because you were personally unsure if you were competent to upgrade, or because your captains or the chief pilot told the company you weren't yet ready for the upgrade?"

At this point a graveyard spiral in the interview could ensue, regardless of your answer.

rickair7777

This is true. You don't need to happy to play the game, but you do need to play it. You'll be happy when you get where you're going...

DarkSideMoon

I guess. Upgrade time at my company dropped from 5 years to 3 years from one class to another. Never thought I could get dinged because a major thinks they know when everyone should’ve upgraded.

But perception is reality I suppose, interesting thing I’ll keep in mind for the future.

JetDoc

One particular 20 something snowflake at my shop had the time to upgrade when I flew with her a year ago. When I asked her why she hadn't, she told me under no uncertain circumstances that if she was ever going to have to "suffer" sitting reserve again it was going to be at delta. Snowflake has a class date at delta. So, as I generally agree with your premise and if I were hiring, I too would also see it as a giant red flag as I see it as a complete lack of work ethic, delta really seems not to care as long as you are buried up to your eyebrows in student loan debt.

ShyGuy

Wow that’s pretty bad. And Delta hired her? That’s even worse.