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-   -   To flow or not to flow? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/119422-flow-not-flow.html)

No Land 3 01-21-2019 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2747188)
Envoy might be best for a DFW base but just keep in mind you’d be sacrificing a ton of pay and QOL. Flow comes at a price.

All of the American WOs are becoming industry bottom. SkyWest just passed a new agreement. Their FOs, along with several other places, are making more than the WO’s captains. FO pay between the two is around a 10k-30k difference and captain pay is around 30k-50k. Not to mention, work rules are almost non existent at the WOs

All the WOs have to offer now is flow. It comes down what you’re willing to give up to have it. As an earlier poster mentioned, it’s not guaranteed. Although not likely anytime soon, if the majors stop hiring... flow will not be sticking around.
Flow to American, only American...

Irishblackbird 01-21-2019 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2747188)
Envoy might be best for a DFW base but just keep in mind you’d be sacrificing a ton of pay and QOL. Flow comes at a price.

All of the American WOs are becoming industry bottom. SkyWest just passed a new agreement. Their FOs, along with several other places, are making more than the WO’s captains. FO pay between the two is around a 10k-30k difference and captain pay is around 30k-50k. Not to mention, work rules are almost non existent at the WOs

All the WOs have to offer now is flow. It comes down what you’re willing to give up to have it. As an earlier poster mentioned, it’s not guaranteed. Although not likely anytime soon, if the majors stop hiring... flow will not be sticking around.
Ditto this, and one other thing to consider is reserve rules. Some of the WOs have some of the absolute worst reserve rules and you will be abused by the schedulers. Go someplace where you will be able to upgrade on your own accord rather than being forced. If forced you are looking at the possibility of being on reserve 2 years or more and if you are a commuter this will create a miserable QOL. Being a junior reserve captain you won't be building that all important PIC time quickly either.

vdawson 01-21-2019 02:17 PM
Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses! It sounds like my original idea, to avoid Envoy like the plague, is still the best. I suppose I was overthinking this a bit. From what I understand SkyWest is going to be greatly expanding their DFW base, so I’ll probably make that plan A. Really DFW is just a preference. I can go wherever but I prefer the South. I’d prefer to fly though. Don’t really want the crazy reserve I’ve heard about with Envoy, Republic and Endeavor.

No Land 3 01-21-2019 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by vdawson (Post 2747408)
Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses! It sounds like my original idea, to avoid Envoy like the plague, is still the best. I suppose I was overthinking this a bit. From what I understand SkyWest is going to be greatly expanding their DFW base, so I’ll probably make that plan A. Really DFW is just a preference. I can go wherever but I prefer the South. I’d prefer to fly though. Don’t really want the crazy reserve I’ve heard about with Envoy, Republic and Endeavor.
I was at Mesa, had a quick upgrade, and was able to move on quickly. Was also based at DFW at the end. If I truly wanted AA, the flow would of been my only real chance, but am much happier flying cargo now. Don't narrow your options.

sflpilot 01-22-2019 05:28 AM
Tread lightly with the flow promises. There have been some posts on other threads talking about AA putting restrictions on who can flow. They are now apparently requiring two years of PIC at a WO regional.

rickair7777 01-22-2019 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by sflpilot (Post 2747681)
Tread lightly with the flow promises. There have been some posts on other threads talking about AA putting restrictions on who can flow.
If they decide they're not happy with the quality/consistency of the flow output, I would expect them to place restrictions on it. Whether they can apply that retroactively to existing WO employees would depend on their contract.

Originally Posted by sflpilot (Post 2747681)
They are now apparently requiring two years of PIC at a WO regional.

They should do that, or at least require X amount of TPIC from some previous source.

GraceMonth 01-24-2019 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by sflpilot (Post 2747681)
Tread lightly with the flow promises. There have been some posts on other threads talking about AA putting restrictions on who can flow. They are now apparently requiring two years of PIC at a WO regional.
At Envoy, one of the stipulations put in place at the time flow began was to have been PIC for a minimum of two years before you could flow (assuming all other criteria were met). So it’s always been around at Envoy. Is this new to the other wholly owned?

Thedude86 01-24-2019 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by GraceMonth (Post 2748966)
At Envoy, one of the stipulations put in place at the time flow began was to have been PIC for a minimum of two years before you could flow (assuming all other criteria were met). So it’s always been around at Envoy. Is this new to the other wholly owned?
Just started with PSA.

Cyio 01-26-2019 04:02 AM
Don’t come to envoy. We are officially bottom tier now and managment is getting more and more contentious. Things are going to get worse here before they get better. Plus, flow for new hires is nearing a decade. You could clean your record and get a college degree in that time.

Go someplace with better pay, better qol and better managment who think of you at least a couple notches up from scum.

Phoenix21 01-26-2019 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by GraceMonth (Post 2748966)
At Envoy, one of the stipulations put in place at the time flow began was to have been PIC for a minimum of two years before you could flow (assuming all other criteria were met). So it’s always been around at Envoy. Is this new to the other wholly owned?
That’s not part of the flow agreement with PDT currently. There has been talk of moving to that though.


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