“1500 hour rule”
 

Now that we’re a little more than 5 years in since the “1500 hour rule” was enacted, I’m curious what other pilots opinions are on this regulation.

To Recap: This was enacted as a result of the Colgan Air 3407 crash. The one that revealed some of the truth of the regional airline industry to the public.

Was lack of experience, defined as logged flight-time, really the cause for this tragedy?

Soon after this new regulation took effect back in my CFI days, I was sitting down having lunch with an FAA ASI. I had to ask his opinion of it, expecting a canned answer. He nearly spit out his food, telling me this was the most useless legislation that won’t solve anything and essentially put into law to appease the families of the lost ones on the Colgan flight. I wasn’t expecting that response.

So what do you think... Did this really fix the problems of the regional industry?

Are the skies really that much safer now?

Do regionals still continue to get away with poor pilot treatment, regardless of union representation?

The 1500 rule wasn't the only "fix" to come out of that crash. There was also Part 117 and a few other reforms. I think combined they have had an overall positive impact on the Regional industry. With the 1500 rule, when the Regionals started having trouble filling classes it forced them to start raising wages instead of lowering their hiring standards which they have done in the past, sometimes down to a wet commercial. The new Part 117 rules has done a lot to fight pilot fatigue. When I hear some of the stories about back in the day the more I appreciate these regulations.


Am I for getting rid of the 1500 rule? Absolutely not. I don't know if it does much for safety, but the extra experience can't hurt. But it has done wonders for pay in the Regional industry.

The best thing about it was the increase in starting pay in the regionals and 117 rules. And PRIA, so you can't lie on your application as easily any more.

The pilots, both would get hired today(and CA would've already upgraded), and they probably had more relevant experience before their date of hire than a lot of CFI new hires today.

Guaranteed
 

Get rid of the 1500 hour rule, and you get < $20,000/year wages back again. Guaranteed.


https://i.imgflip.com/ts1wz.jpg

It’s also a 750 hour rule and a 1000 hour rule, or accurately, an ATP rule requiring airline pilots to possess an AIRLINE Tranport Pilot certificate.


GF

I did a case report on that specific accident in college. It was crazy to look back and see the comments on threads chastising the FO for retracting the flaps when they had the tail stall. Today, that’s the proper recovery taught for that situation.

Regulatory wise I think the 117 rules are the best thing that came from it. “1500” hours though? My 1500 hours is different from yours. You could’ve been ready for the airlines at 500, whereas someone else won’t be ready until 2500. You can’t put a number on experiences in my opinion.

You did a whole case study on that accident report and you don’t know that they had a normal stall and not a tail stall?

da fuq? Sounds like a great report.

Hahaha. Greatest comment ever. Great college, that one.

What grade did you get? They didn’t have a tailplane stall.

Dera, PRIA was around well before this.

1500 has been neutered by big money lobbyists. So the inspector was right.
Today the inexperience in the right seat is glaring. Most want to learn. Some really worry me.

It's a 750/1000/1250/1500 rule. Not one size fits all.

I think it's great.

The only people who are against the 1500 hour rule are the regional airlines and the people without 1500hrs.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

What were you guys smoking during this report case study deal? It was the wrong thing to do, they were in a full blown stall with the wings rocking back and forth.. spin from trying to aileron roll out instead of pushing the yoke forward... go watch the NTSB animation and you’d think differently about the actions of the crash being the right thing to do. RIP to all the souls.

Yeah, PRIA is from 1996 I believe, but it seems like airlines take PRIA much more seriously nowadays.
The Captain of Colgan 3407 "forgot" to mention a few failed checkrides and checking events, something that you couldn't really do today (unless you go to Mesa).

The crazy thing was that they weren't even close to stall when the event started. They had 20+ knot margin to an actual stall. The captain pulled it to a stall for reasons we will never know.

It was a normal stall. Airspeed went unnoticed as it was deteriorating. They were in heavy icing conditions so it appeared that the pilots mistook it for a tail stall and applied that recovery. Was this a result of the fatigue? I would say so. It’s kind of hard to Monday night quarterback their actions, when thankfully we are protected from experiencing their QOL at that time.

I agree with you on the fact you can’t put a number on experience level. How you got to that number obviously separates us. Also the quality of the experience is as well. Would you say someone with 1500 clean hours (no emergencies or ride failures) has more experience than the guy with 250 TT who has dealt with multiple emergencies and a checkride failure (learned from their own mistake)?

I still don’t understand where “1500” hours came from. Both pilots had well over that amount in TT.

They were very close to a stall when the event started. The shaker went off before the captain pulled up.

Correct me if I’m wrong because I’m too lazy to research, but I believe the R-ATP mins came after the initial legislation due to the sudden lack of qualified pilots.

It wasn't supposed to fix most of the problems. Most of the "problems" are simply people allowing themselves to be taken advantage of.

As measured in fatalities per X number of RPM's in the US, yes. Is all or most of that due to the 1500 rule? Hard to know.

The 1500 rule helped with that too. After 1500 hours in GA/CFI, people are slightly less willing to put up with crap than they would have been at 300 hours, when the shiny jet out-shined all other considerations.

But there's a difference between treating your employees like crap and safety. The two can be related, but fundamentally nobody, FAA, NTSB, or Congress cares if your job sucks. You can always quit, and there will almost always be someone willing to fill your shoes (and for less money).

IIRC it was in the original law when signed, but was added in during the legislative and rulemaking process. Which is how it's supposed to work.

Stop. You are wrong.

The point is that he was hired with 700 hours and no experience during the boom years. Much like they are today.

The shaker went off because they had the increased ref speeds selected. They were 5-6 degrees AOA (20ish knots) from an actual stall when it went off. They had no ice on the wings. So they nowhere near an actual stall. Read the report man, it's discussed in a lot of detail in there.

Not sure where, please enlighten me.

a) PRIA is from 1996
b) the captain only disclosed his initial instrument checkride failure in his application to Colgan, and "forgot" to mention his commercial checkride bust, and all the unsat events during his time at Gulfstream.
c) It's pretty obvious you can't do what he did any more, especially when airlines care about what your history looks like in case of an accident.

They DID NOT have a tail stall.

She WAS NOT attempting to apply the recovery technique for a tail stall. There was no discussion or mention of that on the CVR. She was startled, didn't know what yo do so she did the wrong thing. Not surprising given her fatigue state.

They had incorrectly selected increased Vref speeds. Stick shaker activated way too early (20+ knots too early). Captain pulls on the yoke like crazy for reasons we'll never understand. FO puts the flaps up, perhaps to return to previous configuration (shaker goes off almost immediately after selecting flaps 10), but doesn't really discuss that with the captain. Stick pusher activates, captain pulls against it with huge force (160lbs on the last pull). Plane crashes.

Pretty horrible event. But nothing to do with "tail stall". I'm not sure what kind of college that guy went to...

The one thing I can disagree with is that in order to appease the affected families, the lawmakers publicly announced this as a legislation that aims to increase the required time to obtain an ATP. The families were told this was caused solely due to lack of pilot experience.

What does this sound like to the general non-pilot public? That the airlines are putting passengers lives in the hands of “unqualified” people. Maybe it would have been more accurate to expose the realities of life as a regional pilot to the public?

Most passengers still have no clue that most of their domestic flying isn’t done on AA, DL or UA. What if they also found out at the time that the guy upfront was making just enough money to not qualify for food stamps? If this was public, would we see a decrease of RP’s? Possibly leading to a change in industry as well?

I read the report, it’s just been at least six years. Good point, my bad. My shaker is AOA derived and I forgot that that’s not how the -8 works.

“1500 hour rule”
 

It’s disingenuous to say that 1500 hours is arbitrary and not make the same argument for ALL flight time requirements. If you believe that they should get rid of the 1500 hour rule, then you should also argue to get rid of the 40 hour rule and the 250 hour rule and every single hour requirements to get any certificate of rating (cross country, solo, instrument, etc.)

It’s not a 1500 hour rule. It’s an ATP rule. You can now get an ATP at 750/1000/1250 hours as well.

Did those colgan pilots benefit from and learn from making their own mistakes (1500 hours worth of mistakes) BEFORE being hired at an airline? Before this law I knew pilots who upgraded and were PIC for the first time since getting their commercial pilot certificate at 250 hours. They were making their real first PIC decisions (not under the direct supervision of a CFI) while having paying passengers on board! At least now, they need an ATP and 1000 hours SIC minimum. There is A TON of learning in that amount of time. Just learning what not to do is better than nothing.

The ATP rule increased pay. Would the pilots of that colgan flight be as fatigued or sick if they had a livable wage?

The law also implemented 117, it mandated upset recovery training, mandated more training towards the ATP, mandated an establishment of a faa records database with checkride pass/fail history, it mandated SMS, foqa, and ASAP, it mandated a mentor, professional development, and leadership (still pending implementation), and I’m probably missing a couple things.

I can’t think of one thing in that law that wasn’t positive for pilots or that didn’t improve safety.

I think it is safe to say, even though this sounds pretty brutal, but Colgan 3407 was the best thing that ever happened to the regional airline industry.

Looks like I was wrong, and didn’t remember correctly. That’s been like 7 years ago. I do remember a big discussion on tail stalls after we went over the report. Whoops, forgot guys on APC have never been wrong before.

By the way, this is something else this law changed. Airlines are now required to say who the flight is operated by when purchasing the airfare.

It’s not called the 1500 hr rule, the actual rule was a manadate that regional SICs have an ATP to occupy the seat. An ATP required 1500TT and thus the rule was referred to as the “1500 hour rule”.

It’s been 10 years since that flight, February 12, 2009. I’m an aspiring Commercial Pilot with low hours; working on IFR and Commercial now hoping to make a career change from L.E. and fly in Alaska someday. I have absolutly no gripe with the 1500 hour rule and think it is a good. I can’t imagine the confidence, experience, and lessons a pilot will learn from 250 to 1500. Exponential in my opinion. Like another poster said, it may have been one of the best things for avialtion (wages, QOL, etc.), unfortunatly, as a result of circumstances and lives lost. I’m looking forward to gaining the knowledge, skills, abilities, and Earning It!

God Bless All lost on the flight.

Regardless, somebody came up with 1500 to get an ATP. The point being is that they blamed the crash on inexperienced pilots. This wasn’t the case if were classifying experience as logbook TT. Under the new legislation, both of these pilots were qualified based on hours. If they were trying to justify lack of experience as the problem, maybe the ATP mins should have been raised to 5000..

This is how it was in the past as well. Or at least on the purchased ticket it always said “operated by....”

Either way, the FA announces who the carrier is and passengers still don’t get it.

Hmmm, probably fortunate for many pilots. Otherwise, passengers would choose to only fly main line and skip the regional carriers. No?

You’re not going to get the reaction you think you will on this one. Most regional pilots would love to see the regional model disappear. Would some pilots get left behind? Sure, but most of us are ok with that risk.

It may of saved many more lives then it cost. Kind of like the bad rap nuclear weapons get. If they were never invented, at least a million plus would have perished in the land invasion of Japan and who knows how many since then in huge conventional wars between the U.S. and USSR.



The safer Regional industry is a small solace the families of the passengers in the crash can take. Their lobbying efforts did a lot of good.

One could only hope