Why the hate for DEC's?
 

I've started a couple of threads on other boards asking questions about bases and reserve time at different carriers for DEC's. I'm just trying to find info, and get a lot of hate from some, not all, but a lot.

Are FO's upset because their carrier has to hire DEC's? What's the deal? Why all the smart ass comments?

"well at my old company we did X procedure I think that's better"

That's why

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So they think DEC's don't follow company procedures or policies?

Nah... I fly with DECs often at my regional and the absolute majority are great guys doing a good job.
I think most of the hate was due to your 175 question. You’ve got to understand that a DEC job is 1/3 C and 2/3 DE - expecting top choice of anything with that set up is unrealistic. Expect reserve on something no one else wants in a junior base for a while. You manage to get on at front end of a DEC hiring wave at some place - great, things might work out better than that. End of a DEC wave - expect eternal suck. In other words, correlate snarky remarks with voicing unrealistic expectations.
Disclaimer - I saw your threads in passing and didn’t read into them or the replies much.

It has nothing to do with being a DEC and everything to do with the horrible attitude you have shown in many threads here.

Thanks man. My ignorance of the way it works got me there.

What horrible attitude?

Giving it back when insulted? I admit, I have a lot to learn about the way things work in the 121 passenger world. The 121 cargo world I flew in was much simpler. Set schedule of 3 weeks on, 2 weeks off. Bids were simple weekly trips.

I'm just trying to maximize my 14 years left and make the right decisions about my career.

I've "kissed and made up" with those I've had words with. lol

FWIW Flyboy68, I don't get it either.

Maybe they think you are somehow "getting a better deal" then they got?
Hard for me to fathom that...since it will be like "on reserve until infinity."

I try to just separate the facts from the opinions, and take what I can use.

Anytime.
Again, wasn't following your threads, so don't know the desired geography, but I'd say either
- go to a regional where you can comfortably sit reserve in base as a DEC for 2.5-3 yrs (timeframe for those hired after you to get the hours, upgrade and be junior to you)
- go to a regional where you'll get current and fly a bunch of hours in year one and two, captain or not, and then start looking for a place to hang your hat - cargo or LCC.
Don't let the age discourage you. I've had two FOs in their early 50s in my class, no one looked funny at them.

Great advice, thanks. Cheers.

SJS - Shiny Jet Syndrome, is highly frowned upon because like its ugly cousin "I just want to fly" it is another tool that companies use to lure people to accept lower pay and/or work conditions.

I like my job but bottom line I come to work to make money. While I would rather fly an E175 over a clapped out CRJ200 that should always be at the bottom of your considerations list not near the top.

That's why.

Its like this - Union Negotiating Committee is trying to negotiate better wages, the Union goes out to garner support. Pilot 1 says "yea ! heck yea I want more pay" and down the line someone will say "pay, ok... sure but I want better reserve rules" and someone else will say "I want better equipment" etc, etc. Now when the Negotiating Committee goes to the company instead of having 1000 pilots all saying PAY we got the committee bring several issues to the company and the company will pick the issue most beneficial and least costly to them and now we have "an improvement" but yet are still paid below market wages.

Pilots are by and far their worst enemies as well as other Pilots worst enemies.

Ahh...that sort of makes sense.
So, you think the DEC thing is hurting the whole negotiation for better pay, work rules, etc.?
I suppose with the 'big bonus' thing, it could be.
As in: They SHOULD just offer better pay for all pilots across the board.

Yeah, we can claim the "one for all and all for one" mantra, but in the end, it's every man for himself. Or woman, sorry ladies.

I think another point that gets people. Our companies offer all these bonuses and incentives to bring in these DEC’s while the other captains, and FOs for that matter kinda get the shaft. Those who stay with the company, build the time, and upgrade don’t get any additional incentives, while some companies are offering tens of thousands of dollars in bonuses. One of the things I’ve heard around the water cooler.

Edit: totally saw that was sent before, my bad for being redundant.

The DEC programs "is what it is". If a particular carrier doesn't have enough FO's with the flight time to upgrade, they have no choice but to hire from the outside. The only alternative is to ground planes, and no one wants that.

I guess some think, "When I meet the minimum times to upgrade, they won't need anymore CA's and it will delay my upgrade."

Kinda like the cellular companies or cable companies offering these great deals to attract new customers, and the people who have been with them for years are like, "Why aren't I being offered a new phone and these cheap rates?" lol

I completely understand their frustration, but the carriers have no other options but to ground planes and cancel flights.

For at least one of the wholly-owned regionals, the FOs with the requirements to upgrade were there, they just weren't willing to do it for the pay/quality of life hit/various other reasons. Instead of addressing those factors, the company chose to work with the union to let them know they were less interested in fixing whatever may have been preventing a voluntary upgrade than forcing people to upgrade.

Ouch...don't supposed you'd be willing to share which one that was?
Doesn't sound like a place I want to end up.

PSA. But from what I understand, Envoy is also (or was, at least) forcing upgrades, though they were junior-manning I believe. I don't know their current situation, or if they still are doing this.

PSA, it's been rough.

Envoy is still displacing Fo’s To CA. Though it’s been in the contract for a while.

Damn, that's almost like hiring scabs. But most of these DEC's would have no idea that's the case. It's assumed that they don't have enough qualified FO's to fill their CA positions, thus the outside hiring.

I know some FO's don't want to upgrade because they'll have to commute, but sometimes "you just gotta do what you gotta do", and take the upgrade and commute, get that PIC time, and hope to be able to transfer back to your preferred base. Life is full of sacrifices.

Same with Piedmont Airlines. When they started bringing on Direct Entry Captains, we had FOs that were qualified to upgrade. But when you talk to them on the line, many didn't want to. FOs don't get CA pay until they're through training, and the training program at Piedmont is pathetic. Its horribly run with long delays. It takes months to get through, and they don't let you fly the line while you wait. FOs had to take a pay cut to go into upgrade training (several months of minimum guarantee pay) with no ability to pick up extra flying.

So, the company started a Direct Entry Captain program. The offered the DECs a massive sign-on bonus, and gave them captain pay from day one, while paying FO minimum guarantee pay to the internal upgrades sitting next to them in class. It was a big slap in the face for someone who has already put up with the hellacious PDT quality-of-life for a couple of years.

DEC programs are almost always the result of the company trying to find a cheaper way to get CAs on the line, to the detriment to those already on the seniority list. It's cheaper to pay out one cash bonus to someone from another airline that is desperate for some turbine PIC, than it is to raise the pay and quality-of-life enough to make FOs want to upgrade.

Well, that makes a lot more sense now.
I, for one, didn't know that they were doing that to company FOs already on the line.

Neither did I.

Probably. Couldn't really tell ya, I'm just schmuck line pilot.

I'd venture a guess though that yes it does hurt. Based on my experience I interviewed at Endeavor(9E) before they turned their bonuses into pay rates. I actually interviewed several places. I chose one I felt best for me at the time, which wasn't 9E. The recruiters at 9E used to call me once a week and leave a voicemail (because I was flying). After they rolled their bonuses into hard pay rates for all employees I stopped getting calls. When reaching a frustration point with my current employer I updated my app with 9E and it was over two months to get an interview date. Shortly thereafter, they stopped hiring altogether.

So yea, IMHO if you have good pay rates you will not have retention and/or recruitment problems.

It's no coincidence that the two regionals with the highest pay scales (Republic and Endeavor) have their classes full for the rest of the year.

Great, another DEC thread :rolleyes:

No one forced you to read it.:rolleyes:

Couldn't have said it better. I see it rub off on some FOs doing weird non-standard stuff that they learned from DECs.

At my airline, they act like us natives don't know how to properly operate the airplane because it isn't the way they've done it at their last failed airline.

And by the sound of it, the OP came busting in with a bad attitude that left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.... and then asked why people don't like DECs. Fitting.

No I didn't. This was my question.

"I've started a couple of threads on other boards asking questions about bases and reserve time at different carriers for DEC's. I'm just trying to find info, and get a lot of hate from some, not all, but a lot.

Are FO's upset because their carrier has to hire DEC's? What's the deal? Why all the smart ass comments?"

Asking why I was being attacked is now considered "a bad attitude"? Please. :rolleyes:

You sound like a snowflake.

No. An Internet forum is like a clubhouse, all are welcome but there is still etiquette. Most come in and observe, listen a bit, research, maybe ask a question or two. You came in at full sprint, shouting at the top of your lungs, all while wearing a neon tux with lights on your sneakers.


Then you said why y’all mad?

You sound like a treat!
Gonna make a great DEC!

Yes, I will. Thanks.

;)



:)

Exaggerate much?

Etiquette? Since when is insulting some one etiquette? A newb asking a question, albeit a naive question, doesn't deserve insults and ridicule. Way to make the new guys feel welcome! SMDH

Y'all need to grow up. Y'all come off as a bunch of frat boys who ridicule others to look cool in front of your frat brothers.

You didn’t ask a question. You created eight threads in eight separate forums declaring your superiority and right to the left seat of a jet and a blank check, after eighteen years out of the game. Then proceeded to pick fights with anyone who questioned the wisdom of jumping into a PIC role of a jet at a company you haven’t been with, in an industry you haven’t even looked at in almost two decades.

A little humility and tact would serve you well, you’ll find most here eager to answer your questions and help out a fellow pilot if you handle yourself with some professionalism, you know like the leader of a jet crew should do...

That old saying about honey and vinegar comes to mind.

Okay, so now that we've established your propensity for exaggeration, we can discuss the rest.

If you look back at my posts/questions, you'll see that I was looking for information and advice about being offered a DEC position at 2 separate regionals. I received some good advice from several posters about the risks involved in accepting a DEC position and I agreed with them. I don't know where you're getting this, "superiority and right to the left seat" from? The only thing I said, was that I met their minimum hours for CA. Never did I say I had a "right" to anything. You are mistaken.

And as far as "picking fights"? Lol. Read the threads. I was insulted and ridiculed first, without provocation, and gave it back to them, just as I'm giving it back to you right now. I will not sit idly by and be insulted by people who know nothing about me or my history.

You will never, ever find me attacking someone without provocation. That's not my nature. I don't get off on ridiculing others, as many frat boys on here do.

And you're right about one thing. Many on here are eager to answer questions and help. And they have, but several would rather sling mud and insults like frat boys. I'm not here to argue with people, I'm here to find answers to help me make a very important decision and hopefully help others if I am able. If I came across as anything other than inquisitive (albeit naive), it was unintended and I will choose my words more carefully in the future.

Good day.

You have CFI posing as Airline Pilot, vatsim pilot or straight troll written all over these boards.

You say you come in with “3 years 121 experience,” yet you’re asking basic questions that demonstrate you have no experience.

C’mon now, fess up.