Originally Posted by Will JK (Post 2802871)

Hi everyone! Long time reader first time poster. I'm a student at a college with many regional airlines visiting campus to recruit pilots. Every recruiter I talk to has the ability to make their airline sound like paradise, with crazy benefits and amazing company culture. They promise quick upgrade times, industry leading bonuses, and flow to a major. How do I know when to trust these recruiters, as I feel they are just feeding me blatant lies and not giving the whole picture.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2802889)

The only three with actual no interview flow to a major are Envoy, PSA & PDT. All owned by AAG, the same parent company that owns American Airlines. Once hired at any of the three, you’re done interviewing and will just go to American when your seniority will hold the inter-company transfer (called flow).

The rest offer guaranteed interviews. Some offer the preferential hiring after working a few years, a few offer the mainline interview as part of the regional hiring process. If you are accepted by the mainline at the regional interview then you get “preferential hiring” which is still not a guarantee.

Honestly, the pilot shortage is just kicking into high gear starting this year. You should be able to get hired through the front door of a major or good LCC or good ACMI long before you’d actually flow to AA with their flow program. Flow is a nice backup policy if you want to be lazy and just wait. Otherwise, after you have 1000 part 121 and upgrade... keep the resume updated, keep attending job fairs, keep doing some volunteer work, become a check airman, keep networking your nuts off and apply.

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2802889)

The only three with actual no interview flow to a major are Envoy, PSA & PDT. All owned by AAG, the same parent company that owns American Airlines. Once hired at any of the three, you’re done interviewing and will just go to American when your seniority will hold the inter-company transfer (called flow).



The rest offer guaranteed interviews. Some offer the preferential hiring after working a few years, a few offer the mainline interview as part of the regional hiring process. If you are accepted by the mainline at the regional interview then you get “preferential hiring” which is still not a guarantee.



Honestly, the pilot shortage is just kicking into high gear starting this year. You should be able to get hired through the front door of a major or good LCC or good ACMI long before you’d actually flow to AA with their flow program. Flow is a nice backup policy if you want to be lazy and just wait. Otherwise, after you have 1000 part 121 and upgrade... keep the resume updated, keep attending job fairs, keep doing some volunteer work, become a check airman, keep networking your nuts off and apply.

Originally Posted by SilentLurker (Post 2802994)

TSA , COMPASS, GoJet Airlines = 1 interview, seniority based flow to Frontier now. Frontier will not hire pilots from those airlines outside their flow thru program with Trans States Holding Company. 2-years minimum on property (can flow even as FO upon final review of Pilots record at the airline only by Frontier) (for the record AAG does the same for Envoy, PSA, PDT) still no additional interview with Frontier.

Someone from TransStateHoldings company can correct me if I’m wrong, information above is what pilots from the property have told me.

AAG is not the only one using a One Interview only career, no test, seniority based flow.


Edited to Add:

The marketing for TSA-Frontier flow on the websites now says: “Guaranteed Flow.” AAG (PSA, PDT, envoy) do not even make those statements anymore which is telling of itself!

Think about that! AA stopped that “Guaranteed Flow” Many years ago with Eagle.

Originally Posted by C37AFE (Post 2803032)

...frontier is not a major per se

Originally Posted by Will JK (Post 2802871)

Hi everyone! Long time reader first time poster. I'm a student at a college with many regional airlines visiting campus to recruit pilots. Every recruiter I talk to has the ability to make their airline sound like paradise, with crazy benefits and amazing company culture. They promise quick upgrade times, industry leading bonuses, and flow to a major. How do I know when to trust these recruiters, as I feel they are just feeding me blatant lies and not giving the whole picture.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by C37AFE (Post 2803032)

...frontier is not a major per se

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2803045)

It's a major. Certainly not a top tier one, but their last contract was a substantial improvement.

And it is a place where you can make $110K a year as a second year FO while buffing your resume to attract a job offer from where you really want to be. And if you never get the call, you'll be making $250k a year or better when you eventually retire. Can't say that about many regionals....

Originally Posted by Approach1260 (Post 2803109)

It's not so much that they lie, it's just that they don't tell you the whole truth.

For instance recruiters will tell you PSA has a 5-6 year flow, because pilots on property for that long are currently flowing. Due to growth though a current new hire is looking at closer to a decade to flow because the pilot group is so much bigger than it used to be.

So it's just learning to read between the lines and do your research on your own.

Originally Posted by Strykerinf (Post 2803252)

Not all of us actually tell people they will flow in 5-6 years because we all know the math isn’t there to substantiate that claim. I am a recruiter and I am pretty much up front with people about expectations like the flow- it’s an insurance policy... nothing more.. nothing less. I prefer people to make an educated decision on where they want to go based on their needs and whole picture so they don’t eventually get on here and blast the company or the “lying recruiter” that told them XYZ

There are some of us out there that actually care about their company, applicants, pilot group... you just have to find the right one.

Originally Posted by rld1k (Post 2803255)

Then why don't you change all the recruiting literature to stop advertising 5-6 yr flow?

Originally Posted by rld1k (Post 2803255)

Then why don't you change all the recruiting literature to stop advertising 5-6 yr flow?

Originally Posted by Strykerinf (Post 2803306)

You’re basically saying that a private should tell a General how to do their job.. let’s see how that would play out. Not trying to argue, debate, or even defend anyone. I am just saying not all of us lie to people.

Originally Posted by C37AFE (Post 2803350)

The private should definately give advise to the general. They are the ones actually on the front lines. A good general would listen

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2803368)

A private is 18-19 years old, and trained to maneuver and employ a weapon. He probably has absolutely no insight whatsoever to offer a general.

The general has decades of experience at every level of the military, and insight and experience into all the OTHER things which are required for military operations and the broader security objectives of his nation. He is also educated, with typically advanced degrees, at least one of which will involve geo-politics, strategy, history, etc. Oh, yeah and he fought in the trenches with a bunch of privates when he was a LT. So he already knows. He just needs to make sure he's in tune with the current realities of the front-line troops, because things can change over time, and in different circumstances. But he probably doesn't need advice from a teenager.

"Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics"

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2802889)

Honestly, the pilot shortage is just kicking into high gear starting this year.

Originally Posted by Strykerinf (Post 2803306)

You’re basically saying that a private should tell a General how to do their job.. let’s see how that would play out. Not trying to argue, debate, or even defend anyone. I am just saying not all of us lie to people.

Originally Posted by Meow1215 (Post 2803398)

To the OP, one of the most important things you need to learn and quickly - there is no pilot shortage, there is however a pay shortage.

Don’t let anybody rook you into thinking there is a pilot shortage or that their will be one. There will always been more ATPs than desirable ATP jobs. Been hearing for 30 years, “it’s coming”, “just around the corner”, “this year”. No, there is no pilot shortage. If the pay and QOL are good, that airline has no issues hiring and retaining. If it’s crap with crap work rules - they cannot staff it.

Go somewhere:
1. You can live in domicile
2. Stand being there for up to 5 years
3. Stable flying contracts

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2803368)

A private is 18-19 years old, and trained to maneuver and employ a weapon. He probably has absolutely no insight whatsoever to offer a general.

The general has decades of experience at every level of the military, and insight and experience into all the OTHER things which are required for military operations and the broader security objectives of his nation. He is also educated, with typically advanced degrees, at least one of which will involve geo-politics, strategy, history, etc. Oh, yeah and he fought in the trenches with a bunch of privates when he was a LT. So he already knows. He just needs to make sure he's in tune with the current realities of the front-line troops, because things can change over time, and in different circumstances. But he probably doesn't need advice from a teenager.

"Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics"

Originally Posted by Erj135dude (Post 2803441)

I must admit that for the longest time I was a believer, pilot shortage was a thing. And maybe there are not as many as we think, but overall is a pay shortage, period. Profession rocks, but to be able to make it..... God damn!.

Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon (Post 2803554)

I made almost 90k (not including per diem) as a first year FO at my regional and we’ve barely grown our list by a dozen people since I got hired. There’s a pilot shortage.

Originally Posted by Melit (Post 2802933)

I've been hearing about this rumor for awhile. Is it really happening this time?:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 2803045)

It's a major. Certainly not a top tier one, but their last contract was a substantial improvement.

And it is a place where you can make $110K a year as a second year FO while buffing your resume to attract a job offer from where you really want to be. And if you never get the call, you'll be making $250k a year or better when you eventually retire. Can't say that about many regionals....

Originally Posted by Erj135dude (Post 2803441)

I must admit that for the longest time I was a believer, pilot shortage was a thing. And maybe there are not as many as we think, but overall is a pay shortage, period. Profession rocks, but to be able to make it..... God damn!.

Originally Posted by rld1k (Post 2803255)

Then why don't you change all the recruiting literature to stop advertising 5-6 yr flow?

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2803567)

It currently is a pay shortage. In a few years it becomes a physical shortage. Basic math.

Either way, the end result is a shortage of pilots.

Originally Posted by dera (Post 2803572)

The only thing that can prevent the shortage in the next few years is a black swan 9/11 style event. Then the airlines could retire to shrink without needing new pilots to replace the old ones.

I think the 91/135 sector will be worst off.
Lots of corporate flight depts will close, because they just can't pay the money ATP rated pilots will want, when legacies start hiring at 100%.

Originally Posted by at6d (Post 2803399)

Never trust a flow agreement.

Originally Posted by UncreativeUser (Post 2803645)

Why not?


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Originally Posted by UncreativeUser (Post 2803645)

Why not?


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Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2803563)

It’s an LCC, and his question was for flow to a major.
That’s
AA, Delta, United, Fedex, UPS (all global airlines)

LCC
Southwest (just got ETOPS, an almost major, kinda in the middle)
JetBlue
Spirit
Frontier
Allegiant
Sun Country

Originally Posted by 4V14T0R (Post 2803788)

No a major is actually defined by revenue. It has been redefined in some respect as a 121 jet carrier where the paint matched the name on the paycheck. All those LCCs are majors, just not the same tier as one another.


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Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2803887)

The federal government definition of a major is by revenue, X billion $.

The industry itself considers majors to operate at least some NB aircraft, sell tickets, and operate under their own brand.

Legacies did interstate air service prior to deregulation. They use a hub and spoke model, to one degree or another.

Most regionals are actually FFD, flying in some legacies paint. There are few small branded commuters left.

The APC airline profiles reflect the "industry standard" definitions. We don't try to distinguish between national, LCC, ULCC as that is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

Originally Posted by Cujo665 (Post 2803909)

Agreed. If it were just revenue, many ACMI carriers would be listed as major airlines.

Likewise, simply flying the same size aircraft does not a major airline make.

All of the legacy/major airlines are global airlines.

An LCC that does a few Mexico, South America, or similar destinations is not a global major airline

We have
legacy/major
National / LCC
Regional
ACMI (can’t say cargo, since there are passenger only ACMI)

A Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, Sun Country and the rest of the National LCC’s are not legacy or major airlines.

An example. People still run to leave a Frontier, Allegiant or Spirit when a Delta, United or American calls....
they just aren’t the same category carrier.