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Airlines paying off Student Loans???
I heard the other day, that, airlines are considering paying off a percentage of student loans in order to attract more pilots. ANYBODY ELSE HEARD THIS??
Pvt. Pilot- $8,000 Inst Rating- $8,000 Comm License- $18,000 Multi Time (100hrs) - $8,000 (split with another pilot) CFI, CFII, - $3,000 Sally Mae Loan- for the $45,000 = $113,000 in about 15 years New job at the regionals making $20,000 for the next 3 years= :DPRICELESS For everything else, there's uncle sam, waiting, to TAKE HIS 20% AWAY FROM YOU EVERY WEEK!!! |
considering doing what now? this is a good one for the rumor mill
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Doubt it. If they did, you would soon realize HOW MUCH you as an airline pilot are really worth. This would just add to the credibility problems that airline management already has and create animosity and tension with current pilots. I can tell you, that if it happens, the proverbial "Sh!t" will hit the fan.
Don't hold your breath! |
That would make sense...a regional could offer to make your monthly payments, thereby giving you an incentive to stick around for a long time.
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It still amazes me how much money some people spend to to become pilots. I am doing my instrument right now, and when it is all said and done I will only have had to pay about $12,000 for my PPL, Commercial/Multi, and Instrument. It's all about having a roommate who owns an airplane and all you have to do is chip in for gas.
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Who did you hear that from your flight school?
Yeah right! You may see some signon bonus's, for a few thousand dollars from some *******y regionals, but thats worth what a couple months of student loan payments. |
I was told Mesaba is thinking about doing the same thing at UND.. The plan is to have freshman and sophomores sign contract saying they will work at Mesaba and Mesaba will then pay for the rest of the training after the commercial single engine certificate..If thats the case we are going to have a hand load of people that wont graduate anymore..
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Mesa will repay you the cost of their PACE program in your FOURTH year, in monthly installments, if you don't upgrade to cap. in 3 years.
http://www.flightcareers.com/Pace_Br...i_Training.htm |
Soon
Originally Posted by bintynogin
(Post 156220)
I was told Mesaba is thinking about doing the same thing at UND.. The plan is to have freshman and sophomores sign contract saying they will work at Mesaba and Mesaba will then pay for the rest of the training after the commercial single engine certificate..If thats the case we are going to have a hand load of people that wont graduate anymore..
Welcome to indentured servitude. SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 156214)
Doubt it. If they did, you would soon realize HOW MUCH you as an airline pilot are really worth.
As for indentured servitude, they are pretty much there now since the salaries at regionals are such a joke. |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156226)
Soon pilots will be able to sign a contract while still in high school and after college and employed as an airline pilot they can receive a bill every two weeks in place of a paycheck.
Welcome to indentured servitude. SkyHigh |
Great it gets better every day. (Sarcastic)
First skybuss, now the only hope of limiting the supply of pilots is going out the window. I can see the future, regionals covering the cost of training to pay 25k a year, luring more in, more expansion, regional pilots moving on to skybus and virgin America. Skybus and others undercutting the competition. New contracts issued to united and cal, dal, and others. Massive expansion by skybus, and virgin America. A few years down the road, Huge loss's reported by legacy carriers due to the Ultra low cost carriers. Concessions from pilots to get inline with 65k skybus captains. And a lot of ruined careers. |
Originally Posted by robthree
(Post 156236)
College? Why let them go to college? That will just give them skills they could use outside of aviation. Just train them out of HS. There's no FAR which requires a College degree. Plus with no other skills they won't be able to leave for greener pastures even if they wanted to.
When the USAF had a pilot shortage (about nine years ago) they talked about bringing the Aviation Cadet program back. It does not take a college degree to fly an airplane. It does take a good training program. Some of the best pilots in the world are at El Al. The Israeli AIr Force begins selection at age 16. Their training program has a high attrition rate but results in highly qualified pilots by age twenty. Many of them are reservists who fly for El Al. The 90 day schools (0 to CMEL) are questionable; perhaps what aviation needs is one year schools (fully funded by airline industry) with carefully screened entrants and attrition rates that reflect high standards. |
Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot
(Post 156291)
Good point. The USAF Aviation Cadet program (ended about 1962) used to create a 2/Lt. Pilot in twelve months - a college degree was not required. There could be USAFA Academy graduate, AFROTC graduate and aviation cadet in the same UPT graduating class.
When the USAF had a pilot shortage (about nine years ago) they talked about bringing the Aviation Cadet program back. It does not take a college degree to fly an airplane. It does take a good training program. Some of the best pilots in the world are at El Al. The Israeli AIr Force begins selection at age 16. Their training program has a high attrition rate but results in highly qualified pilots by age twenty. Many of them are reservists who fly for El Al. The 90 day schools (0 to CMEL) are questionable; perhaps what aviation needs is one year schools (fully funded by airline industry) with carefully screened entrants and attrition rates that reflect high standards. Maybe . . . or why don't airlines just raise their standards and pay and only select candidates from those "Pilot Training Schools" that are producing THE BEST candidates. |
Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot
(Post 156291)
It does not take a college degree to fly an airplane. It does take a good training program.
Training programs for the airlines are designed to get pilots onto the line as quickly as possible and take for granted much of the background the military introduces or re-enforces in their training. The balance that airline training appears to to seek is to invest in training programs only to the point of bringing risk to an acceptable level. The problem with this approach is that these programs are designed to start with candidates that have known a minimum level of experience and aeronautical knowledge. As the supply and demand curve in the current pilot job market favors pilots for entry level positions, my fear is that safety could be jeopardized as airlines struggle to fill their cockpits. |
Originally Posted by HSLD
(Post 156306)
I agree with you although a comparison between the USAF and corporate America isn't apples to apples. Funding levels and mission objectives are obviously much different, and pilots working for airlines are liabilities unless they turn a wheel - no so in the military.
Training programs for the airlines are designed to get pilots onto the line as quickly as possible and take for granted much of the background the military introduces or re-enforces in their training. The balance that airline training appears to to seek is to invest in training programs only to the point of bringing risk to an acceptable level. The problem with this approach is that these programs are designed to start with candidates that have known a minimum level of experience and aeronautical knowledge. As the supply and demand curve in the current pilot job market favors pilots for entry level positions, my fear is that safety could be jeopardized as airlines struggle to fill their cockpits. Accurate point. Airlines need a pilot to produce revenue immediately, where as in the military service, pilots need to be prepared for when the need arises, so the govt. is willing to pay a pilot when they are not producing. In addition, the military engages in all sorts of aptitude and psychological testing prior to accepting a candidate for flight school. The airlines (121 regulation test and Class 1 medical). I am sure that you will see safety being jeopardized in the very near future, and you will see finger pointing as well as airlines sweeping these incidences under the carpet to protect undue regulation and public outcry. |
"my fear is that safety could be jeopardized as airlines struggle to fill their cockpits."
I knew we were in trouble when guys start asking if they have to indicate in their logbooks whether their 50 hours multi PIC is safety pilot or sole manipulator.... |
a long time ago stanford trained a monkey to fly an airplane. as far as im aware the monkey was not a college graduate. sure college isnt a critical requirement for aviation, buts its a another way of distinguishing and adding exclusivity to the pilot profession. it doesnt mean pilots can walk around with their noses in the air waving their college degrees in everyone's face. its selection criteria. it is what it is.
Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 156311)
.
I am sure that you will see safety being jeopardized in the very near future, and you will see finger pointing as well as airlines sweeping these incidences under the carpet to protect undue regulation and public outcry. |
Safety
Then again modern airplanes virtually fly themselves and Skybus does not pay wages through training.
Perhaps in the near future HS grads can go strait to a one year airline sponsored cadet program and fully fund the entire cost of their own initial training through IOE. It would be cheaper for the cadet than ERAU and who cares how long it takes if the new hire is paying for it all. If a pilot is groomed from day one to be nothing other than an RJ pilot then I think safety will not be compromised. Most of what is learned through an average general aviation flight training experience has little to no value to an airline pilot anyway. SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 156311)
Accurate point. Airlines need a pilot to produce revenue immediately, where as in the military service, pilots need to be prepared for when the need arises, so the govt. is willing to pay a pilot when they are not producing.
In addition, the military engages in all sorts of aptitude and psychological testing prior to accepting a candidate for flight school. The airlines (121 regulation test and Class 1 medical). I am sure that you will see safety being jeopardized in the very near future, and you will see finger pointing as well as airlines sweeping these incidences under the carpet to protect undue regulation and public outcry. There is extensive knowledge on this forum. Collectively they could design the best system. Now all they have to do is convince management their current system "may" have long term costs in lives and aircraft. During my flying career I hated that expression, "The pilot is the first one to arrive at the scene of the accident." |
Originally Posted by robthree
(Post 156236)
College? Why let them go to college? That will just give them skills they could use outside of aviation. Just train them out of HS. There's no FAR which requires a College degree. Plus with no other skills they won't be able to leave for greener pastures even if they wanted to.
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University
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 156344)
This is very untrue. A degree in aviation gives you more insight and knowledge than what a flight school will teach you. A degree will make you a much better pilot.
SkyHigh |
"Most of what is learned through an average general aviation flight training experience has little to no value to an airline pilot anyway."
Disagree. A pilots a pilot. An airline pilot is simply a pilot that works for an airline. |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156341)
Then again modern airplanes virtually fly themselves and Skybus does not pay wages through training.
Perhaps in the near future HS grads can go strait to a one year airline sponsored cadet program and fully fund the entire cost of their own initial training through IOE. It would be cheaper for the cadet than ERAU and who cares how long it takes if the new hire is paying for it all. If a pilot is groomed from day one to be nothing other than an RJ pilot then I think safety will not be compromised. Most of what is learned through an average general aviation flight training experience has little to no value to an airline pilot anyway. SkyHigh Thats ridiculous, an airplane is an airplane is an airplane. Weather is Weather............what are you talking about, X-wind landings in a small airplane or a swept wing airplane is essentially the same, Thrust and drag act on all airplanes not just Airliners come on................... |
Example
Originally Posted by de727ups
(Post 156346)
"Most of what is learned through an average general aviation flight training experience has little to no value to an airline pilot anyway."
Disagree. A pilots a pilot. An airline pilot is simply a pilot that works for an airline. One time I showed a VFR chart to a Delta Airlines DC-10 captain. To my shock he didn't know what it was. In his entire career he had never had to work with anything that was VFR. I had another guy who was a check airman at Horizon Air who had never filed his own flight plan or called a fight service station. Both of these guys were ex-military. They didn't need those skills at all. Airline pilots could skip a lot of what is taught to new GA pilots. Why would an RJ pilot ever need to preform a soft field landing, forward slip, stalls, spins, dead reckoning, flight planning....ect? Maybe the FAA could create a "121 only" limitation on the commercial licence? They could also make a "121 Jet Only" limitation on multi engine ratings. Why would an RJ pilot ever need to know how to feather a prop? SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156352)
One time I showed a VFR chart to a Delta Airlines DC-10 captain. To my shock he didn't know what it was. In his entire career he had never had to work with anything that was VFR. I had another guy who was a check airman at Horizon Air who had never filed his own flight plan or called a fight service station. Both of these guys were ex-military. They didn't need those skills at all. ...
SkyHigh |
Military
Originally Posted by ghilis101
(Post 156355)
i dont buy that for one second. military guys are for the most part their own dispatchers and flight followers. its part of the agony of military flying. its why they show 3 hours prior to takeoff, they have to do EVERYTHING
Most of what takes up time in training are to develop skills that are mostly never called upon again once an airliner is reached. Why then don't we just skip that stuff and create civilian 121 only pilots? I bet we could shave 100 hours off the required program and substitute it with RJ simulator time instead. SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156352)
One time I showed a VFR chart to a Delta Airlines DC-10 captain. To my shock he didn't know what it was. In his entire career he had never had to work with anything that was VFR. I had another guy who was a check airman at Horizon Air who had never filed his own flight plan or called a fight service station. Both of these guys were ex-military. They didn't need those skills at all.
Airline pilots could skip a lot of what is taught to new GA pilots. Why would an RJ pilot ever need to preform a soft field landing, forward slip, stalls, spins, dead reckoning, flight planning....ect? Maybe the FAA could create a "121 only" limitation on the commercial licence? They could also make a "121 Jet Only" limitation on multi engine ratings. Why would an RJ pilot ever need to know how to feather a prop? SkyHigh Sure as we progress in our careers we use our VFR techniques and other skills less often and sometimes forget altogether. It was two years ago a ex-UAL captain asked me "How do we pickup an IFR cleareance from a non-towered airfield?" This very basic step that was probably one of the first things taught to a fleging instrument student. This just goes to show how the basics are just as important as the advanced training and skills we employ in our daily jobs. Because you never know when you will find yourself in any one of a variety of circumstances. |
Vfr
VFR navigation is becoming a lost art even among VFR pilots.
How many VFR pilots break out a plotter and flight computer, put a line on a chart, compute winds and variation? How many simply dial in KXXX, and press Enter, Enter? |
Antiquated pilot skills
Airline pilots do not need to learn pilotage, dead reckoning, VFR rules, stalls, steam gauge attitude instrument skills, most of WX charts ect.... Most of that stuff is as worthless to a new pilot as an E6B.
Where in the near future will new pilots even be able to develop such skills? New planes are all glass with moving maps and GPS. At one time it was considered essential for pilots to memorise Morse code, learn tail wheel skills and pilotage. In the near future airlines will have their own sponsored initial training sources and pilots will fund the cost of their own training. UAL and the rest did something similar in the late 1960's. No pilot shortage. Oh yea, and hand flying IFR will be considered to be an emergency procedure only practiced in the sim. SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 156344)
This is very untrue. A degree in aviation gives you more insight and knowledge than what a flight school will teach you. A degree will make you a much better pilot.
I doubt any Aviation college four year degree / CMEL program teaches more about aviation then a one year AF or Navy pilot training program. A similar civilian one year program could be established. Unfortunately the 90 day wonder programs prevail right now. |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156341)
Then again modern airplanes virtually fly themselves
It's incumbent on all pilots to keep their skills sharp through whatever means needed, after all that's why we get paid the big bucks. Once pilots accept the role of a costumed button pusher (aka children of the magenta line), I would agree that bargaining power is lost. So to get back on topic, if airlines are interested in balancing the risk of putting low time, low experience pilots in the cockpit of jets AND have adiquate margins of safety maybe an Ab Initio training program is the answer. Offering to pay off student loans in exchange for x number of years of service doesn't address the problem. |
Originally Posted by kdoner
(Post 156211)
I heard the other day, that, airlines are considering paying off a percentage of student loans in order to attract more pilots. ANYBODY ELSE HEARD THIS??
Pvt. Pilot- $8,000 Inst Rating- $8,000 Comm License- $18,000 Multi Time (100hrs) - $8,000 (split with another pilot) CFI, CFII, - $3,000 Sally Mae Loan- for the $45,000 = $113,000 in about 15 years New job at the regionals making $20,000 for the next 3 years= :DPRICELESS For everything else, there's uncle sam, waiting, to TAKE HIS 20% AWAY FROM YOU EVERY WEEK!!! |
Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 156214)
Doubt it. If they did, you would soon realize HOW MUCH you as an airline pilot are really worth. This would just add to the credibility problems that airline management already has and create animosity and tension with current pilots. I can tell you, that if it happens, the proverbial "Sh!t" will hit the fan.
Don't hold your breath! |
Helping newbies in the industry pay off student loans is a common concept in medicine and the law. The multimillion dollar organization, of which I am a board member, offers to partially defray these loans for new law graduates who accept a job with us. Historically, people did not want to do this type of law, so we have had to think of incentives to attract the best and the brightest. This is just one way. Jobs in legal aid never did and still do not pay well, but we have to do what is necessary to keep ourselves staffed with competent and passionate people. And by the way, we do not ask that in exchange for help with loans that the person work for us for x number of years. Life is what it is and everyone has needs and priorities that change over time.
I can imagine a similar program to work for the airlines. Management could be persuaded if a net "lower cost" for them can be demonstrated, or even just plain efficiency and efficacy. |
Us
Originally Posted by crewdawg
(Post 156408)
Earned a college degree and got all the way up through my CFII, with only a 4k loan to pay back. It's all how you work the system!
SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156352)
One time I showed a VFR chart to a Delta Airlines DC-10 captain. To my shock he didn't know what it was. In his entire career he had never had to work with anything that was VFR. I had another guy who was a check airman at Horizon Air who had never filed his own flight plan or called a fight service station. Both of these guys were ex-military. They didn't need those skills at all.
Airline pilots could skip a lot of what is taught to new GA pilots. Why would an RJ pilot ever need to preform a soft field landing, forward slip, stalls, spins, dead reckoning, flight planning....ect? Maybe the FAA could create a "121 only" limitation on the commercial licence? They could also make a "121 Jet Only" limitation on multi engine ratings. Why would an RJ pilot ever need to know how to feather a prop? SkyHigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 156433)
Its called signing your life away tom Uncle Sam and it works fine.
SkyHigh I would hardly call it signing your life away. I have done some great things and partied all over the world in my short time in the military. Your right spending a few days on the beach in south Spain is pretty rough to handle. Or the dreaded two weeks spent in Vegas! :D If forgot to mention that every trip I ever went on (besides basic/tech school) were all voluntary. Not one of our trips were mandatory, that is why you join the AIR guard and not he Army! ;) At any rate it's a small price to pay to end college with no debt. I'm not saying it's for everyone but it sure would help with that starting pay at regionals. |
Military
Originally Posted by crewdawg
(Post 156451)
Hahaha.....I love how people always call it "signing your life away." In the time I was enlisted, while going to college, I never missed more than 2 weeks of school at a time. Unless you count a summer trip to the sandy region of the world. I had friends who never went TDY with our unit and got out after six years. They did the required 1 weekend a month and did their two weeks in the summer at our base. They also got up to their MEI with around 5k debt and are enjoying the financial freedom required to work for poverty level wages their first few years at a regionals.
I would hardly call it signing your life away. I have done some great things and partied all over the world in my short time in the military. Your right spending a few days on the beach in south Spain is pretty rough to handle. Our the dreaded two weeks spent in Vegas! :D If forgot to mention that every trip I ever went on (besides basic/tech school) were all voluntary. Not one of our trips were mandatory, that is why you join the AIR guard and not he Army! ;) At any rate it's a small price to pay to end college with no debt. I'm not saying it's for everyone but it sure would help with that starting pay at regionals. Skyhigh |
Huh ???
Originally Posted by kdoner
(Post 156440)
i guess we should never make our kids mow the lawn, do their own laundry, or make em do their english homework because that's not going to help them become a ______________ . <-- insert career here.
SkyHigh |
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