91 job to a regional?
 

Hello all,

Current 91 pilot here, flying a large cabin biz jet in the Northeast. What was a pretty good job has gone down the toilet due to a myriad of issues. I also am growing weary of a lack of standards, profiles and flows. I had that back when I was a fractional pilot, and would love to get back to a place that has it. So I have decided that I want to move into the 121 world. I have 5500 total time, just over 5000 turbine, 2500 jet, 3300 PIC. Two type ratings, and 800 hours in a 48,000+ airplane.

My primary target is JetBlue, mostly because of their Boston base. I'm an hour or so away from Logan. I have two internal references there, but 0 121 time. I have also applied to United, with one internal ref, and Delta, with zero internal refs. Obviously I would have to commute if U or D offers me a job, but I think that is a long shot.

One thing I have been mulling over is applying to Republic. It would be a foot in the door of the 121 world and give me some schedule stability. The problem is that it will be a MASSIVE pay cut. My wife works, and we have a lot of money in the rainy day fund, plus no children, but it would be a pretty big change in lifestyle for the both of us. My wife is extremely low maintenance, so I don't have any worries about there being marital issues, but we enjoy nice things, so it would be a bit of a bummer. But all that being said, if going to RPA would give me more of a chance of getting on with JetBlue, it would be worth it. I would also assume that my experience MAY give me a chance to upgrade soon-ish? In no way would I be comfortable being a 121 captain right out of the gate, but after a year or so I think I'd have a fighting chance at being able to handle that.

So what does the peanut gallery think? Just keep on doing what I am doing until the place I really want to be calls me, or just jump into the 121 world with a move to RPA?

The money stuff only you and your wife can decide.

Upgrade requires 1000 121 SIC time, and you have none, just like a new CFI. Otherwise upgrade is based solely on seniority, so your bizjet time won't help there.

On the other hand, 3000 multi-engine turbine PIC is very competitive for the majors. Will checking the 121 box be what it takes to get you an interview? No one can tell you that for sure. Will COVID-21 shut down air travel in 2022? Will you be one of the many who inexplicably never get the call? Go somewhere you believe you'll be happy, and be prepared for the music to stop.

I thought 1000 hours of 135 PIC (which I have) also counted towards being able to be a 121 PIC?

Nope, I ran into that same issue.
”Scheduled” 135 is what the reg says.
So you’re back at zero as far as the 121 world is concerned with a minimum of 1000hrs for upgrade so bite the bullet and get 121 time with Republic.
With all due respect, don’t thing they’re waiting for you as they’re most definitely not.
Your problem with Part 91 is also their problem with Part 91.
Your chances would have been better if you’d stayed 135 and didn’t switch over to 91.

I know many pilots who in the last 5 years went direct 91 to 121, one to Jet Blue, 4 or 5 to FDX. Once hiring starts, you’ll be fine without the stop at a regional.

Your times should be competitive for a major or legacy, assuming 1000+ TPIC and all other required quals like degree, etc.

I know a number of similarly qualified pilots hires by UPS, FDX, Delta, United, etc.

An intermediate stop like a ULCC or ACMI to check the recent 121 experience box is another option.

I do have a 4 year degree, and 1000+ TPIC.

I don't really want to go into the ACMI world due to the amount of time away from home. A ULCC would involve a commute, but perhaps that's not the end of the world.

Thanks.

You can skip the regionals. Unless your jobs is truly awful/unsafe and you just can't bring yourself to go to work for one more day, stick with it and keep applying to Jetblue and the others. Plenty of guys here at B6 who came directly from the corporate world, and I have quite a few buddies who went straight 91 large cabin to Southwest, United and Delta. It's not uncommon at all.

Hiring is just starting up again so don't feel bad if you don't get a call ASAP, but there is zero reason with your credentials to go sit right seat in an RJ and take a huge pay and QOL hit in the HOPES that a major airline calls you. You're competitive already with what you posted for all the major airlines. Hit every job fair, meet and greet and networking event that you can find.

My .02 would be, if your job truly sucks, start looking at other part 91 gigs while also working on Jetblue and the others. If you're flying large cabin biz then you have marketable type ratings and skills that could get you another corporate job with similar or even better pay and QOL than you already are enjoying. Worst case, JB and others never call but you found yourself a better biz jet job. Best case you get a call from the majors while also getting offered a new/better 91 job.

Apply to everything 121 above the regionals. Take whatever calls first. Then keep applying for what you want

As a previous 91 & 135 pilot, take my opinion and stay corporate or charter. 121 flying sucks. You turn into a robot, and you can kiss all your fun flying goodbye. Hang a left and take your seat in the cockpit. B O R I N G.

As folks get older, some find they prefer a little well-compensated boredom over the "excitement" that you get from operational, job, and career uncertainty.

I do quiet time on trips, and still have 17-18 days off per month to do whatever excites me. Or not, whichever.

This.

Also if you have the opportunity at your current place to be involved in training/standards/safety/hiring etc. do it. With no 121 time anything you can do to make yourself stand out, the better.

That sounds delightful! Boring is good.

Out of curiosity which reg says scheduled? Haven’t read that, but could have missed it. FWIW I’ve recently had a regional tell me my time would count according to 135.243 because I was a captain of a turbojet in an operation requiring an ATP.

FWIW I'm 99% sure that's correct. It's the ATP requirement that does the trick.

121.436 says: “If serving as pilot in command in part 121 operations, has 1,000 hours as second in command in operations under this part, pilot in command in operations under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) of
this chapter, pilot in command in operations under §135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or any combi*nation thereof.”

135.243(a)(1) states: “a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger* seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter”

To me, it reads like it’s 10+ seats OR scheduled 135 to count toward 121 PIC requirements.

Any one of the three requirements separated by the comas applies to the requirement because it says “or.” This is also confirmed by the Kelly interpretation (the original interpretation had an error in defining the requirements and was corrected in an addendum that came afterwards).

That being said, any company can be more restrictive in their requirements than regulation. It is possible even if you have the legal requirements they may want you to have X amount of time at the airline, 121, etc.

It's not that horrible, and chances are whatever 91 I move to laterally will have the same issues, or different issues. The problem with a 91 job is you never really know the culture until you've worked there for a bit. It could see all roses and BJ's front the outside, but then once you work there, you see the reality. It could also change on a dime, which is what happened with my job. At least with an airline you know what to expect from day to day.

There are only two of us in the department, so I am involved with all of that. Sad part is I can't check the "management" box on a lot of applications even though I am technically.

Good for you and your quiet time... Regardless of age, like I said in my comment, it’s MY opinion that 121 (especially regional) is boring. Enjoy your autopilot flying.

I don't spend any more time using the autopilot at my airline than I did flying 91/135. If anything the corporate equipment was far more modern. If I want excitement in an airplane I'll buy an Extra.

I left a nice 91 operation to come to Republic and moved into base. Don’t regret the pay cut at all. On year 3 pay and with some pickups and knowing the contract I’ll clear 80K if I stay around. Still spending ample amounts of nights in my own bed.

I got my 1,000 Part 121 in 12 months. Work hard and it’s possible. The quick upgrade will be back soon. Republic has been a pretty good place to work at with a great group of pilots. Good luck.

I went from contracting Part 91 in a super midsize with a 135 background to Endeavor. The quality of life was great for me once I got some seniority, even though I took a huge pay cut.

Having a set schedule with a bit of flexibility with trip trades and drops was amazing compared to no schedule. Commuting sucked balls.

My idea was to get my time, upgrade fast, and move on. We stagnated in growth, so what I thought would be a 6 month upgrade never happened in 3.5 years. Ultimately, I was able to move on to Spirit. If anything, it was a good primer and introduction to 121 flying.

It is really nice to just go to work and fly the airplane. No coffee, ice, papers, no last minute trips, no lav cleaning. You have a team of people working with you to get the job done, etc.

Anyways, I was in a similar situation and made the jump and it worked out for me. I enjoyed my time at Endeavor.

Sit tight and wait for JB. Work on more internals.

99% of the 91/135 flying I did was to comfortably long paved runways. I don’t use the autopilot any more or any less at a 121. Landing in Mansfield, OH, isn’t any more exciting than landing at ORD. If I want the excitement of landing on grass I’ll rent a bug smasher.

I do not miss having my decision making and continued employment come into question every time a rich owner with 0 aviation background thought the weather was fine. I also don’t miss spending my off time hunting down obscure catering requests.

Being that I’ve never heard of a hand flying override, I’ll take the autopilot all day long. It’s all about dollars per hour with minimal hassle. Kissing up to corporate bosses, cleaning the airplane, making arrangements for catering, etc. sounds like a giant hassle, so I’ll just show up according to my set schedule, do my time, go home, and collect my pay.

Serious question how do you fly the airplane with a lack of “standards profiles and flows” I got yelled at in the sim in the 121 world because I didn’t say balked landing...

There’s nothing wrong with autopilot. However going from mainly 91 and a little 135 to 121, it’s clear most guys can’t fly without it… FO or CA. Pretty sad to have a guy click on the autopilot on a CAVU day after takeoff without you asking because they can’t handle their business, regardless of seat position!! It does suck having crappy clients. Anyways, to each their own.

91 job to a regional?
 

Where do you work? In my 15 plus years in 121 aviation I haven’t met anyone as inept as you’re describing.

In ~3500 hours of 121 flying, at both a regional and a legacy, I have never once had someone engage the autopilot while I was flying without me calling for it. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of times someone has even said something about not engaging the autopilot shortly after takeoff. Sounds like an issue with your carrier, or more likely, that particular captain.

1000 hours of 135 turbojet PIC counts.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2015/duncan-afs-1_3%20-%20(2015)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Thats why I click it right back off from the yoke and tell whoever “my controls”. Then at TOC, having a discussion to reset the CRM environment.

Ive had one CA at my shop shop insisted on planning and managing my descent to reach a crossing restriction from altitude when clearly I was going to meet it. I ended up giving him the controls and down he went. Once we got down to our assigned altitude, he looked at me was like damn, you were right. I was very annoyed with him and tried to have a short discussion to reset the CRM environment. Refused to entertain the discussion and that my friends is how he ended up on my no fly list.

Apparently he has a rep for being a micro-manager and a ****bag of a CA.

I'm coming from Part 91 as well, contemplating a move to 121. We currently fly about 100 hrs a year, trending downward as time goes on. I need to fly, both for my professional progression and for my own state of mind :). I have a wife and young daughter, and the move to a regional would be a 50% pay cut first year just going off of monthly guarantee.

Has anyone been in a similar situation? I feel like if I'm not flying, the world is passing me by. However, a 50% pay cut is a kick in the teeth.

Do it. Rip off the bandaid and plow forward. Decide where you want to end up as your career airline, and work backwards from there to make a move where you most need to be now.

If you want to go to a major (legacy or LCC) absolutely go to a regional, get your time, and get out!

Also, don't get comfy until you reach that goal. Take the upgrade at the first chance even though going from a senior FO to a junior CA will most certainly sting for a bit!

Do the airlines.

As far as pay it’ll be unpleasant for a year or 2, but lifestyle, longevity, and just a lot more fun is waiting. Life is about having fun and soaking up as much of that while you’re still young enough to do so.

Do the airlines

"a 50% pay cut is a kick in the teeth."

manwhat will youdo when the food and watercompletey go away? oh wait thats just a conspiracy theory. justl ike the chaos andlooting in africa is a conspiracy theory could NEVER happen in america.. ;)

What are your flight times?

2900 TT, but no turbine PIC. I have an app in at NetJets but not really expecting much to come of it. They’re pretty competitive right now. I feel the regionals are the best place to fill in my logbook, whether that’s for majors, NetJets or whatever else later on.

wife can’t blame me for that, but a voluntary 50% cut is different :)

serious question: is your wife stupid? It’s ok, some people are. Your current job sounds like it doesn’t really have a future.

Can she see that you take a 50% pay cut now, on your terms and timeline or you wait until you have more kids with friends on their soccer team and take a 100% cut on your bosses timeline?