Skywest: I refuse to work for big brother, when they are holding ASA under water to drown. Sorry.

Freedom: Mesa? You serious? Why would I want to work under those work rules, and for JO?

Shuttle America: I could deal with RAH. No doubt there, they are on my list.

Pinnacle: Well, they are #2.

ASA will remain #1, just because there is no commute. If I get furloughed, and have to take a commute. . .then so be it, but right now I'd rather take my chances. Nevertheless, I'm still a good 400 hours and 50 hours multi short of minimums, plus I wouldn't mind instructing for some time to gain a bit more hours. :)

CMEL in progress right now.

You might be right, but it sure doesn't look like it from where I'm standing.

Good luck with the contract. You guys deserve something worth celebrating

I hope I am right. I have been on the line for about 6 months and morale is low. I hope that ASA is in the low swing of an upward cyclic event. In other words, there is no way but up.

The flying is great.....the rest stinks! ATL is a poster-child for how not to run an airport. Delays are out of sight....rampers could care less....pilots are demoralized. It's GOT to get better.

A contract would make a huge difference! Until then.........."the beatings will stop when morale improves!"

Thanks for the reply. Additionally, when you say 2 of the 20 are selected for the ATR, do they just split two people off from their 20 person classes or does the entire class generally get the same equipment? Thanks again.

No. It's really based on attrition. We are losing far more CRJ200 crews than the ATR or CRJ700. One thing to note.....the ATR is a relatively senior aircraft. They usually fly short trips....the crews are typically home in the evenings vs. long overnights in the RJ's. The CRJ700's have better pay rates, so crews stick by them longer. Attrition is the main factor.

Here is a paste from an email we rec'd a few days ago............

"Sorry I did not get the staffing information out to you sooner but I was waiting for more information on the last 2 CRJ700 aircraft coming to us from Comair. As of today, it appears they will come in October. Based on the aircraft delivery information and current attrition, we are planning to run new hire classes of 40 for the remainder of this year. Upgrades are planned at 20 per month from now until the first week in December.
Starting in July, we will be conducting classes of 4 every two weeks for the CRJ700, down from class sizes of 10. The numbers will be skewed to the First Officer ranks since Captain attrition only runs 2-3 per month. Overall pilot attrition is planned at 6 per week or 26 per month. In April attrition was 28, May was 17 and June is so far 30.
Starting in July, staffing requirements are as follows:

• ATR Crews needed -- 45 available Captains -- 41 available F/Os -- 42
• CRJ200 Crews needed -- 464 available Captains -- 455 available F/Os -- 452
• CR700 Crews needed -- 163 available Captains -- 176 available F/Os -- 178

As the month of July progresses, we will continue to move to the plus side and in good shape to staff the rest of the summer schedule. The summer schedule does though start winding down after August 22. Block hours will be down in September but then start ramping back up in October and reaching a peak in December.
Unless our attrition spikes from current plan, we are in a good position to absorb the 2 remaining aircraft and pull the average line values down. I appreciate those who gave up their vacation weeks (84 total) and picked up open time over the past five months, it helped to minimize the extensions and junior assigning."

Thanks for the info as well Cubflyer.

Take stock young lad....

1. a strike is not going to happen. Period. Best case is we will get released someday and mang/union will strike a deal in the 11th hour. Their too close already. Worst case is we will get everything we want and then not be competitive and that will kill our future growth (not saying I believe this, but that is mang. story)

2. We will not EVER be stapled to bottom of Skywest list. they guy that posted that probably is a real ASA captain but I'm guessing wrote that after a long trip; certainly a flair for the dramatic. If we merge it will be date of hire or percentage based. The ASA guys want date of hire (except for our most senior 100, they will actually go backwards) but the 4 to 5 year guys would get a big advantage. I'm a 10 year guy, I think I would stay the same) The Skywest guys want percentage based because the young guys think it would effect their upgrade to Captain.

This is a silly fear, here's why. It will take another few months for ASA to get a contract, let's say 6 months. Then it would take at a min of 6 months for a merger to take place. Then, another 6 to 12 months for the merger language to be written (how long did it take U.S. Air/Am West?) Then there would be a 12 to 18 month fence before we could cross bid domiciles.
So let's add that up 6+6+12+18=42 3.5 YEARS!!!!! Everyone working at Skywest or ASA as a newhire today, will still make the upgrade on schedule. It would be the guys hired AFTER that program was announced that might be affected!

Finally, your comment about SW union. Many believe it will pass. But it is not a REQUIREMENT. There is case law already out there which supports that. It would no doubt make it easier, but not required.

Hope this helps,
Stick

The contract will not change the attitude much. Trust me. I was here in 98 and that was an awesome contract improvement. The ramp in ATL did/will suck and that will always be a source of tension.

Where did that letter about the hiring get posted, I have not seen that.

Stick

P.S. in the month of June by the 20th we had already lost 30 pilots and we've got 10 days to go....

If you get the ATR you should jump for joy. I too was a little bummed at first about not "getting the jet" but you really don't know what you're missing. It's a fantastic training dept and all the people on the plane are genuinely fun to be around.

Don't worry... you'll see a jet before you retire. Landing is where all the fun is and I get to do hundreds more per year than the jet folk. Plus... I don't have to type something every time the plan changes! I'll move to the jet when I feel like working more... for now I just want to fly!

Stick, I appreciate your insight. Keep it coming.

My comments were directed specifically at the thought of either a strike, or the potential for being stapling at the bottom of the seniority list.

I honestly, do not foresee either one of those two things happening. I agree, a contract will come out at the 11th hour if not before. Merging the lists, well. . .yes, that'll take time. . .and the WHOLE ASA Pilot work group will not be stapled to the bottom, but rather both lists (ASA & SKW) will be properly merged.

One can hope. :)

It's amazing how many guys / gals are leaving. Like I said earlier, I'm in no rush. I'd like to instruct for some time, instead of coming right on in right at the minimums - I don't want to be THAT guy. But, I just hope that this time next year things are starting to look on the up and up, and they will want another local to work for them. . . especially one with a meteorology background. :)

That's very noble of you, but a good job is a good job. I've actually counseled a few of my west coast FOs to go there, and they did and are happy. Upgrade is about 1.5 years on the jet (13 mos on the Brasilia, and management treats them fairly well. Most are happy. ATL is also a junior base right now, so you'd prbably get it.

Agreed. I was just mentioning everyone with an ATL base.

Both have or soon will have an ATL base. Pinnacle recently got "awarded" a bunch of CRJ-900s for DAL.

I wouldn't put ASA #1 just because you want to be in ATL. There are better choices. But with your time, it may be your only option.

Actually, the ATR is senior for FOs, but junior for CAs. And most trips are 4 days, with a few 3 days and a few day lines. I wouldn't say ATR pilots spend more time at home than anyone else.

What's great is that most of the ATR FOs are recieving -700 pay because they are "bypassed". That's a loophole in out contract that basically states if the company puts someone junior to you in a position you bid for, you get paid the rate for that position.

As for ATR captains, they like it because they get paid the same as the jet for 1/4 the work. The ATR is EASY and FUN! And the junior ones can hold a line rather than sit reserve on the jet (note: reserve SUCKS at ASA, you have NO LIFE).

How long is reserve runninf at ASA on the CRJ200 right now???????

Agreed. I would actually say the latter option is the most likely.

Our current scope language offers us no protection. In fact, management has told our negotiating committee that "preferential hiring" at Skywest is the best they can offer us in terms of merger protection. That means if Uncle Jerry decides to get rid of ASA, it will be like the rampers going to DAL. Skywest will cherrypick the "good" people and they will come on as new hires at Skywest. As of now, we nave ZERO protection making a merger percentage based. If Skywest goes ALPA, the ALPA merger policy kicks in, making a % seniority merger more likely.

ASA won't be shut down overnight. The new game is "retire and reward". Right now, Bombardier is taking trades of -200s for -700s, -705s, and -900s because there is huge demand for -200s in China, but they are out of production. What Skywest will do is trade in ASA's -200s and place the new airplanes at Skywest. This eliminates transfer costs. Attrition will take care of the pilots. When we're whittled down to about 500 pilots, they'll pull the plug on ASA and the above scenario will take place.

Agreed it's not a requirement, except that the union has hung their hat on SKW unionization for the scope protection it offers. In return, they're trying for a trophy contract to woo the Skywest pilots into going ALPA.

I don't believe it will pass. Too many pilots over there are apathetic and believe management's story that it will hurt the company. They see the ASA pilots getting screwed and think it's because of the union. Also, many of the hardcore union supporters over there have left.

The letter came as an email to all pilots. I think it came out on monday. Check your email, you should have gotten it as well.

A month on reserve at the most (CRJ 200). After that, you can hold a relief line, and possibly a regular line.

It was on the ourasa company mail.

People are leaving because of a lot of things. There were many that after 9/11 realized how difficult it would be to take the pay cut. With all of the crap that is going on many are realizing that they can't afford not to take the pay cut.
The are loosing a lot. I know that even some of the CP's are looking at SWA and others. It makes sense. Unless this job will always come first and you do not care about your family, you will need to make this temporary at best. ASA is good for 3-5 years top. DO not get comfortable. If you are feeling yourself do that, go find another job.

I'm relatively new to ASA, but I can go along with you on that. Better yet, I think you are right on target.

I'm of the opinion that all regionals are suppose to be temporary in nature...that is perhaps with one exception - Horizon.

The problem with that view is that it is at least somewhat inaccurate. Every pilot goes to a regional thinking to get hired by a major after 5 years or so, but I think 40% or more are still there 10 years down the road if they haven't left the field. I would be interested in hearing a statistic.

Well, because previous the majors were not hiring. . .and only a few right now are hiring, Delta is one of them.

The 10 year figure is probably a reflection of that. Perhaps the 5 year number will return, but I'm not too sure of any regionals where guys can get to, and in under 5 years have the TPIC (not just the minimum - but competitive TPIC times) required to move on. It's far too variable to really be able to pick of the many out there, although I know it's possible.

Our current scope language offers us no protection. In fact, management has told our negotiating committee that "preferential hiring" at Skywest is the best they can offer us in terms of merger protection.

JP, not exactly.... what JA offered was that we would keep our date of hire for pay, but back of the pack for bidding. still a huge pay cut, and god knows I couldn't stomach sitting in the right seat for the snot nose, jelled hair, sketcher crowd, but that was just JA's initial offer, it can only get better from there.


ASA won't be shut down overnight. The new game is "retire and reward". Right now, Bombardier is taking trades of -200s for -700s, -705s, and -900s because there is huge demand for -200s in China, but they are out of production. What Skywest will do is trade in ASA's -200s and place the new airplanes at Skywest. This eliminates transfer costs. Attrition will take care of the pilots. When we're whittled down to about 500 pilots, they'll pull the plug on ASA and the above scenario will take place.

There could be some truth in all of this. That is why I've voiced my opinion loud and clear to my representitive. The CNC has already won several battles. We went from being sold/bought to 13% pay cuts and shrinking fleet, to getting a few new aircraft (sorry about that Comair guys, better us than scabwest) and pay cuts are off the table, we made huge gains in scheduling (credit to Pete where do) Let's split the difference on a couple of items and put this thing to bed.

Agreed it's not a requirement, except that the union has hung their hat on SKW unionization for the scope protection it offers. In return, they're trying for a trophy contract to woo the Skywest pilots into going ALPA.

You're right, but hang their hat, is the policy for now. If it becomes necessary later, they can always pursue other avenues. Our union leaders/CNC sware too me that they are "doing what polling tells them they want" and not guilty of the attitude of "we know what's best for you" Danny and Nick are pretty good guys, for now I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
I don't believe it will pass. Too many pilots over there are apathetic and believe management's story that it will hurt the company. They see the ASA pilots getting screwed and think it's because of the union. Also, many of the hardcore union supporters over there have left.[/QUOTE]

It's a coin toss. I was based in SLC and have had many SW jump seaters, if you put a gun to my head and said predict the outcome, I just couldn't. Of course working at ASA makes the "pull the trigger" scenario not such a bad option! kidding!!!!
Stick

JP where you DFW,SLC, or LAX? I ask because I was all of the above.

Good one stick? :confused: I know you know the definition of a scab so I won't spell it out for you, but nice colorful misuse for your personal gain. As far as Comair, we're also flying CVG with ex CA birds, so do a little more research! Yes it’s sad that they’re no longer CA birds/routes but not as sad as the red eye ATL-TUS-ATL CR9 routes we now fly 25 times a month. That red eye used to be flown by a MD-88/90. It leaves ATL at 21:15 arrives in TUS at 22:05. 1:25 turn then departs TUS at 23:00 and arrives in ATL at 6:00 a.m. Now that's SAD, we're a "regional" flying cross country 8 hour red eye FLTs! :confused:

BTW, take your cracks but I'm ATL based now and for July I got 19 days off with 88.5 hours of pay. I picked up 1 local (150% pay) out of DEN to drop my days off to 18 but that local took me to 103+, add that to the 3:45 holiday pay for July 4th and that makes 108 hours of pay for July. As for why ATL, my family and my wife’s family all live within a 4 hour drive from ATL which is a lot closer than a 4 hour flight from PHX. My family is most important to me and if incorrectly being called a "scab" because of were I work makes my family life all that much better than so be it.

Also, if SKW Inc wasn’t flying those Ex-CA birds then it might have been GoJet or MAG. Better SKW Inc than GoJet or MAG! But I guess I'm a Scab just like you are with those Ex-CA routes, XJT with your flying in LAX, RAH with Horizon DEN flying, MAG with CA and ASA flying, Mesaba, Pinnacle, etc......................... Please, everyone wake up!

See you in line on Echo.

Damn. I should have bid ATL.

There's a SKW domicile in ATL now!?:confused:

Was this rant suppose to have a point???? Yes, I know that Skywest flies former CA birds. Yes, I know that you have a base in ATL. Yes, I know you have a better contract and get paid more than we do.

So why do I call you scabwest? Because of the selfish attitude of so many of your pilots who say things like "why would I want to pay union dues when our company already gives us things that other union companies get" or my favorite; "the threat of a union is a better tool than having a union". The "better us than scabwest" comment goes to the fact that ASA and Comair unions have a long history of working with one another. If management is going to screw them over (and they did) it is better the airplanes go to a carrier that is at least working for the greater good and has in the past shown support for the Comair pilots.

I'm just curious, do you realize how positive the impact of the Comair strike was on the added pay/benefits that you receive at Skywest? I'm equally curious if you know that every ALPA member had his/her dues jacked up during the strike so that we could help pay the Comair pilot from the war chest+contributions so they would not be without at least some pay. So tell me, when the Comair pilots were on strike, how much did you pay to help pay their wages? 0.00, right? Yes, it is better that the CA planes go to a fellow ALPA carrier if they had to go at all.

Are skywest pilots true scabs? No. But is that attitude that so many of you have smell of scab, absolutely! If you're too cheap, too selfish, and too short sighted to do the right thing, get on the team, and become a union pilot, than at least display the intellect and common courtesy to shut the hell up.

Stick

Don’t lecture me; I’m not some young slick haired punk pilot. One day we’ll be unionized and we’ll merge, until then show some leadership and reframe from name calling. You’re sinking to the same level of stupidity and ignorance as those slick haired punk pilot’s are at. You know the ones, all air carriers have them.

How many times must I tell you my card is in! I support and back all ALPA carriers and I try to educate every pilot I come across. But remember, there are A-Holes at every carrier. My CA and I denied the jump to an ASA pilot the other day. He wanted to jump our flight down to ATL but the gate agent was very busy and told him politely he would have to wait. Apparently he thought he had waited long enough and decided to take his frustrations out on her. Telling her how SKW is screwing all ASA pilots and that she’s no different form her cocky pilots. My CA and I were standing less than 15’ away awaiting the arrival of our a/c when we over heard the argument. We gladly entered the conversation to take the pressure off of her and enjoyed denying him the jump, it didn’t matter that he was ASA or anyone else for that matter. He was denied because there’s a time and a place for everything and that was neither. Gate agents have the worst job in the biz so we as pilots should show a little more appreciation and respect.

You seem to forget that every airline has cracks and those cracks are what everyone sees. Understand that the majority of us at SKW really care; we’re not all Slaphappy’s. I can go on and on but I won’t, I’m just sick of all of you calling us what we're not.

So, Blah Blah Blah Blah BLAH! Wake up!

Yes, starting July 1st. Soon MAG (?) and RAH should have one there too.

pills11.com ;))

I heard at least 4 in the next class.

Thanks for your reply. Suppose I was very junior in my class and bid for the CRJ200, what do you think the odds of me getting this aircraft are?

Youll get the 200 most def. Only 2 out of 18 got the atr last class and classes prior are even getting the 700.

Isnt there a contract somewhere that asa is gauranteed 80% of the delta flying in atl? Hence why we are getting the planes that we are?

I'll lecture any time I choose when you make jack ass rants and I could not care less what you are sick of hearing. Don't want to hear it? Then lecture your slick hairs, not me.

I applaud you voting yes, and even support your decision to denie the JSif it was as bad as you say.

I will say this in defense of the ASA pilot that you dealt with, If you were in our shoes and you'd had 3 bases yanked out from underneath you by Delta/ JA and you saw the way JA treats your company and in turns craps on ours, your nerves might be just a little frazzled as well. Just think about it.

I had a Skywest Jump seater the the other day. Snot nose FO who walked in the cockpit and TOLD me "I'm riding here or in the back, I'm not sure yet" Then he wanted to put a huge chart case in the cockpit. I told him if he rode up front that would be fine, but if he was going in the back, to take it with him. He sat in 1B. He told the FA that "he had to sit there, just in case" because he was a jumpseater. He again came to the cockpit and said, "I'm sitting in back but I'm going to leave my bag here"
I told him no, and he said he was sitting in the bulkhead and had no place to put it. I told him to check it like every other pilot does. The FA offered another seat, he declined "I have to sit here just in case". What a chode. Then I find out that he is asking people to move their feet so he can put his bag under their seat!!!! I sware I can't make this up!! I called him to the cockpit and in no uncertain terms, told him check your bag or get off, he was delaying my flight. I found out later that he took out his charts and collapsed the case and put stuff in 3 overhead bins. On top of this he spent the whole flight "explaining" the plane to the guy next to him and dogging ASA with comments like "we own them and they better shape up or we will take all their planes"

Just for a moment if you were in my seat, how would that have gone over with you? But guess what? He still went. Politics with the jumpseat is a NO GO. I wanted to not denie, but grab this little b%@!h of a man by the ear and throw him on the ramp. But, he went. Again, no politics with the jumpseat.

I spent 7 years in the Army as a Blackhawk pilot and have been at ASA for 10 years, I will lecture you anytime I want. I've earned it.

Stick

First of all, I still don't understand your overall hatred toward the SkyWest pilot group. No one I have EVER talked to in a SkyWest uniform is getting any enjoyment from "taking" anyone else's planes, just as you don't like flying some old Comair birds. But I'm willing to bet that if a plane pulls up to your gate, with ASA written on the side, but a CA tail number, you're still going to fly it. Don't insult my intelligence, and everyone else's on this forum by calling us scabwest.
Second, in reference to the bolded part of the quote, it is my understanding that JA has very little to do with the management of ASA. I believe that the same guys who ran ASA before, still are. Also you can hardly say that he craps on you, while treating us so great. Our pay is almost identical, with ASA perhaps getting just a bit more. They've also at least on three occasions aggresively pursued growth for ASA. You may not like how long it's taking the contract to get done, but you're far from gettting crapped on. I'm former Trans States, and I know what getting crapped on is like.
And third in reference, to you bashing slick haired young pilots at SkyWest, I only ask that you look in the mirror of your own pilot group. I believe ASA is hiring plenty of straight out of college 400 and 500 hour pilots. There are young pilots all over the regionals now, that all have different opinions on unions, and our industry as a whole. Don't try to pretend that ASA has 1,700 pilots with 7,000 hours or more, who've all been around the block twice.
Anyway, as I've said to you a couple times before, put your sword away, and stop bashing the SkyWest pilot group. Remember, in the not to distant future, we'll be on the same seniority list, and you'll have to fly with me, even if I'm young.

This guy you are speaking of just sounds like a tool. Could be anyone from any pilot group. One of the biggest tools I have ever met fly's at ASA but I don't judge your entire pilot group by this one guy.

Amen. I'm a young guy myself (very young 20's) and it makes me SICK how some of these young newbie Pilots stretch "professionalism" into oblivion. It's terrible, but WAVIT is right - that guy could have been ANY pilot from ANY pilot group these days...Period.

You should have denied him the Jumpseat. Absolutely.

My first Captain off of IOE reamed me a new a**hole on Leg one for tossing my crew-bag into the closet before offering to help the F/A with hers. I just had no idea about the common courtesy and privileges in this Industry - and I wish I could thank him today for tearing into me because I'd still be making a fool out of myself :-)

Next time you see one of those young slick Pilots, bring the hammer down on 'em. They've got to take off their diapers at some point - for everybody's sake!

Here's the problem, you are wrong on sooooo many levels; I take them point by point.
"no one enjoys taking planes" That's b.s. read some of the post on here. Plus, I've heard with riding on the crew bus in SLC. Do not presume to tell me what I have not heard. Maybe you are so aw inspiring, that the loud mouths simply don't say it around you....

"insult you" I will, to your face preferably, as long as you continue to recruit and have loud mouth snot nose punks who continue to say the things I previously quoted, your pilot group will continue to be held accountable. Maybe you don't think that way, but many do, save your lecture for them.

"JA has little to do/same guys running ASA" Now you are showing your youth and inexperience. Do you really think that LeBreque runs ASA? They are wholly owned. BL is no more in charge of ASA today than when Delta owned us. All of our decision are made by JA or Delta. Want proof? Do you think ASA wanted to fire 100's of employees from the ramp/gate?

"JA doesn't crap on ASA" let's see.... "Jerry are you going to close SLC for ASA?" Answer from JA "it doesn't make sense to keep the base as small as it is, but if we can grow it we will leave it open" So what happens?
1. base closes
2. ASA increases the amount of flying in SLC
3. Open LAX (even smaller) so much for the "too small base theory"
4. Opens ATL base for Skywest even smaller than the ASA base in SLC

these were all (except maybe LAX) union busting moves. i.e. crapping on us


"equal pay" wrong again, you get time and a half for picking up open time/ we do not. you have a duty rig, we do not. Hell, you even get paid to take a Pizz test, we do not. I've seen your pay, you guys have bigger W2's and yet JA tells us we have to take a 13% pay cut when he bought us.

When did I say that we didn't have young new hires at ASA? Answer: never. There is a difference, we have way more senior captains who balance out the new hires and keep them straight on how not to act like a jerk.

"not so distant future, you'll have to fly with me young or not" Don't worry, you'll grow out of it. I hope.

YOu are correct. I will concede the point. It does seem that their are a lot of people at skywest dragging down the good guys there. Again, just read some of the comments.

Stick

Exp,
you sound like a great guy, but I caution you, don't play politics with the jumpseat. The tit for tat can get out of hand, and the next thing you know, some guy is going to loose his job because he couldn't commute to work because he got denied for a tit for tat reason. NO politics with the jumpseat.

Stick

Stick,

With all due respect, you have absolutely no right to lecture me. You may feel that you’ve earned it but I’m here to tell you, you have not. I respect and applaud your years of service but that doesn’t give you any rights over me, PERIOD! I'm 31 years old, 1 child, married 6+ yrs, this is my second professional career, I have two degrees and I've been successful at everything I've attempted; so give me the respect that I'm showing you. The respect of not being some snot nosed, slick haired, cocky, this is my first pro-job ever pilot. My father and uncle are both former USAF (ret) and Braniff (ret)/SWA (cur) respectively; they have the right to lecture me. Both spent the better part of a decade involved in conflicts having limped home in wounded birds several times and yes, both have been shot down. They’ve earned my personal respect and admiration where you have my general respect and that's it.

As for SKW, there are cocky pilots everywhere so don’t be naive, at least the pilots who come to SKW held out instead of falling victim to SJS like so many of your new hires. They could have gone to GoJet, MAG, Colgan, PSA, TSA, Eagle or ASA around 500-600 (SJSers) hours or less but decided to hold out for SKW at 1000. That says something about them as a person even thought they’re cocky, time will set them straight and teach them the lessons they need for the long haul.

BTW, you may say that SKW is actually ScabWest but ASA is “Anther SkyWest Airline,” or are they “Another $hitty Airline.” Name calling? That’s for the immature so leave it to them.