Regionals getting desperate…
 

Can destruction of the regional system be far off?

https://i.ibb.co/RzTh0xx/36-A92-A6-E...C989-E3-A4.jpg

They gave up line bidding for Rigs AW has had since ever?
You have to work to get the holiday pay?
They didn’t have long call?!?
They didn’t have 100% DH pay?!?

I like how they are trying to sell PBS as an advantage for the pilot group

Don't believe management lies

When does this take effect

Exactly - without a lot of good work rules PBS is a no no. That’s why PSAs MEC has said no to every PBS overture.

If that's considered as an improvement.......

tried to tell them…..

It wasn’t too long ago when regional airline management’s talking points, as it related to pilot pay, was that they could not possibly increase pilot pay because “regional airlines operate on a razor-thin margin”.

Yeah,….that was a good one!

PBS has been in Envoy’s CBA for years, they could’ve implemented it years ago. We’re just now cashing in on it with other contractual improvements and negotiating how PBS will look here.

Cashing in on it? You make it sound like it’s a good thing…

Read the rest of my sentence…

I did. And then I did again. You make it sound as if it’s a good thing…

The only people cashing in on PBS is management.

PBS is great, but the pilot group needs tight contractual controls.

A WO Regional with tight contractual control is an oxymoron.

PBS and “great” is also an oxymoron. If you ever want to get staired down in a bar, utter those exact words around a group of pilots who have good line bidding.

I agree. Of course in addition to the contractual controls you need to actually take the time to understand how it works as do the negotiators who negotiate those contractual controls.

I find it amusing how many pilots - even senior pilots with years of experience - farm their bidding out to bidding services rather than just learning how to make the system work for their own bidding.

Their ignorance supports an entire cottage industry.

https://pbsbiddingstrategies.com/pbs-monthly-pricing/

https://pbsgurus.com

https://www.bidliner.com/how-it-works


https://planebids.com/schedule-now

It’s a service and all about how someone values their time. Could I mow my grass? Sure, but I’d rather pay someone else to do it.

it’s also the difference between understanding how to get the best you can from PBS and trying to convey to someone else what you want so they can get make their best guess of what you want. Big difference.

I hate line bidding. Want two random days off for life events? Good luck. There was one month where the number one in base couldn’t have snagged both days off I needed.

Prefer afternoon flying? We built the schedule so every line has mixed start times, enjoy!

Prefer not to go to the east coast? We built the schedule so every line has some NY appreciation time!

You’re 100% at the mercy/whims of the people that construct the lines. To a lesser extent that’s true with PBS and individual trip construction but usually there’s enough of what you want in there it’s possible to get closer to what you want.

Getting three weeks off for one vacation isn’t worth having a terrible schedule the other 11 months of the year IMO. Talking to people who bid using PBS it seems like the only ones who really hate it are the ones who can’t figure out/don’t bother to figure out how to bid properly.

This is what Platinum Days are for

What he said. Not worth it just so the top 20% can trip-touch or whatever.

bottom 20% at my airline and i trip touch every month. PBS blows.

My airline would just turn the trips that touched into a Frankenstein 6 day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Or drop one day in the middle and split you back into the trip. Not particularly useful.

At 9E, they love giving a 3 day touching another 3 day without enough time to go home in between. They won't give hotel rooms to commuters either in this case.

Interesting
 

One (new) regional is going to offer new hires, qualed on type, more money than those already on property, and qualed on type. Honest question, but does anyone think this is cool? It’s actually part of a bonus program that may, or may not, happen.

Right now if you are a DEC you can write your own ticket at many regionals. That’s simply reality. Without enough non-DEC CAs to run the schedule there aren’t enough CAs to get the FOs up to upgrade eligible before yet more CAs are lost to the majors and the place is in a death spiral. Those either unhireable at a major or willing to trade a few years of seniority at a major for a few more years at a regional can earn - by regional standards - big money. Unless they truly are unhireable by a major, it’s still pennywise pound foolish, but some people have other priorities like locale.

Honest question, what in h€|| has “cool” to do with it?

Four airlines in and I’ve had both PBS and line bidding. From that experience I much prefer line bidding. Anyway, this is like arguing what flavor ice cream is the best.

Spumoni - no question.

^ He’s right you know.

What new regional?

Employers do that kind of thing ALL the time... it's happening all over the place right now, and certainly not just in aviation. Some organizations (including my wife's employer) are doing across-the-board raises to improve retention in addition to recruiting, and also to avoid disgruntling old hands who are stuck on old pay scales.

Don't like it? Need some CBA language that prevents changes to unilateral changes compensation.

oh please. A ten year old LOA negotiated under concessional bankruptcy threats, and countless LOA’s since with countless opportunities to pursue PBS over the past decade and not one attempt?? GOOD luck with that in arbitration.

now that you’ve got a new PBS LOA that even agrees to operational necessity, the Envoy pilots are hosed.

hosed? Are you forgetting this is a pilot market. Good luck with retention if they tried anything stupid.


TORO

you obviously don’t comprehend who you’re dealing with. They will impose it, their way. Their answer will be bigger bonus money when needed or increased flow…. I’m betting all three WO get increased flow. Costs them nothing and would attract more pilots. 1 year as CA, then flow…. Reduce AA street hiring to 25%…. Boom, they would need to build more classrooms and hire more instructors.

A regional can’t survive on ‘1 yr as CA, then flow…’

Even if the new CA actually worked the full 1000 flight hours, that would JUST manage to qualify ONE (1) FO to upgrade. Realistically, that CA is NOT going to work 1000 hrs in that one year - not with vacation, sick time, etc., and even if they did that would not take care of the deficiency in SIC hours generated by CAs that got the call from some other major and left early, or worse yet, FOs leaving with 500-800 hrs SIC who would never become CAs at the regional.

it’s a queuing problem that cannot be solved by shoving people in at the bottom. You must retain them at the top for long enough to generate their replacement.


Do you seriously think you’d be seeing things like this if a year in the CA seat would do it?

https://i.ibb.co/bm1vPRY/B1-D99-DB2-...FAF9-B9147.jpg

go jets has no flow thru with anybody. AA (and other legacies with WO’s) will eventually make the easiest path to their flight deck by flying at their regional and flowing. When 3 out of 4 new hires come from their regional they have no problem staffing their airline. Envoy had the worst concessionary bankruptcy contract in the regionals but filled all their classes while others weren’t, why? Because at the time 63% of Ann new AA new hires were coming from Envoy all by itself. Since then they destroyed that flow to share it with the other 2 WO’s

worst case, they make itv1.5 or two years.

Gojet (singular) has an opt-in no interview flow to United. A new hire only has to opt in to the program and fly their 2000 hours as a UAX pilot or whatever and they are qualified to flow to UA.

A lot of fine prints. I.e no 121 failures in past 5 years. So if you fail your recurrent in the 4th year, or captain upgrade, you're screwed.

YOU MISS THE POINT. It isn’t about GOJET and it isn’t about AA. It’s a queuing problem.

For a regional to remain viable they must retain CAs long enough to sit left seat enough for them to get an FO up to 1000 hours SIC. That is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM assuming no loss of ANY FOs prior to them becoming CAs themselves (which of course there is) and no loss of any CAs prior to them getting 1000 hours of 121 PIC (which of course there is). if that is not the case ON AVERAGE than you are in a negative FEEDBACK LOOP WHERE A DIMINISHING NUMBER OF CAs will only be able to provide a diminishing number of flights leading to a diminishing number of FOs getting to upgrade eligible (and taking longer to do it) and ultimately the organization can’t continue. That CANNOT be offset by pumping new FOs in at the bottom, which will only dilute available right seat hours among a greater number of FOs, slowing their progression even more.

In fact, the loss of ANY FOs prior to becoming a CA is more devastating than the early loss of a CA. A CA that leaves after flying as a CA for 500 hours has ‘cost’ the organization 1000 hrs of SIC time but has ‘earned’ for the organization only 500 hours of SIC time, whereas any senior FO (600-800 hrs SIC) who departs gives an even lower return on ‘investment’ in terms of CA hours. Nor is it just
How many block hours do you believe you can fly a CA? In a year? Max allowed by law is 1000, but how many actually BLOCK a thousand? Considering there is going to be recurrent and two weeks of vacation and cancellations due to weather? You aren’t going to be able to get this done with an average time as a CA of 18 months even if you don’t lose a single CA before they get to 1000 121 PIC or a single FO to a ULCC. And you ARE going to lose FOs to the ULCCs (and some even to legacies) and you are going to lose a $hitload of CAs to both BEFORE they get anywhere near 1000 121 PIC.

And then there are the special cases - like the military retirees that flew C-17s, KC-135s, or B-52s for 10-12 years before flying a desk to finish out his 20 years who now comes to a regional for no other purpose than to do a touch and go - to pick up a free ATP and get current. There’s no way in hell they are going to stay around long enough to make CA- heck, they’ll quite possibly be a CA at a legacy before they could ever flow to one.

I’m sorry, but if you think increasing flow will make this situation better, you are delusional. The regionals don’t need faster career progression of their CAs to remain viable, they need slower career progression. But with the majors hiring like they are, they aren’t going to get it.

Best option for people at the regionals, barring a truly devastating recession ( and I’ll give you that this administration is doing their best to engineer that) is to go wherever you can get in the quickest and where they are going to work you like the proverbial rented mule, get all the SIC hours you can until a major (any major) will give you an interview, and then get a second type there, where disappearing CAs are not yet an issue, while putting out and constantly upgrading apps for whoever you want to work for. Otherwise you are going to be the one with no seat at the table when the regional system fails.

If I haven’t explained it adequately for you, buy the book:

https://www.dummies.com/article/busi...raints-255110/