Time frame of becoming a captain?
 

Once hired by a regional, what is a realistic timeframe from the time you are hired as a FO to when you upgrade to captain? Also, how long do most pilots fly for a regional before they are hired by a major, given that that was their plan all along, Regional>major. ? thanks for the info

Did regionals for 13 years. Good degree and never a scratch, but still waiting for the big boys to call. Upgrade results may vary, depending on airline and state of the industry. If I were to guess, I'd say we are on an upswing for hiring, meaning more movement. However, world events could very easily bring that to a halt. Plan for the worst, and get a side gig outside of the biz.

CA upgrade can be anywhere from 1 year to a decade, depending on which regional and which airplane. Several are hovering at 2 yr upgrade right now, Republic, Express Jet, to name a few

This is an age old question that many people here wonder themselves. If this is an industry you want to get into, you will find out that it is very unpredictable. Point being, upgrade times to CA vary from airline to airline and can change at any minute. I know that's a vague answer but that is the reality. Right now if you were hired, there are places that advertise upgrade times at anything from around 2 to 6 years. And that's a real rough estimate. Again, that could all change tomorrow. Try searching around the forum, do as much research as you can; you may find that upgrade times might not be the most important part of picking an airline also, some people go for Quality of Life (pay, living in base, etc etc) over upgrading.

Hope that helps, good luck with your search.

Typical upgrades right now...

Low-tier turboprop operator: 6-12 months
Jet regional: 2-3 years (occasionally as low as 1 year)

A few regionals are longer, even 10 years on some aircraft. You definately need to research a prospective employer and understand their geography, pay, work rules(MOST IMPORTANT!), expected growth, upgrade, and company culture. Make sure it matches your needs...you are in the very unusual and fortunate position of being able to be somewhat picky. Historically most of us had to take the first job offer we could get. But don't work for Mesa or Gojet...ESPECIALLY gojet.


Getting called by a Major...total crapshoot. It can take anywhere from 18 months as a regional FO to never. The most important factors in order of importance:

1) Military flight experience.
2) Knowing someone on the inside. Actually this is #1 but military guys always know somebody anyway.
3) Having an affirmative action affiliation.
4) Turbine PIC time, 1000+ hours
5) Larger aircraft time (737 or better)
6) 121 time
7) Turbojet Time
8) Glass cockpit time
9) Masters Degree

Great post Rick...spot on.

Nicely put.

As always! He has over 3000 posts and all of them comprehensive and concise!

9) Masters Degree

a masters degree are you for real

Delta's always been big on advance degrees. Not so much the others.

The advanced degree thing stems from the fact that in the military if you want to get past field grade (o4) you are going to probably need the Masters. Then you take an airline like Delta (big on Navy pilots) then airforce, marine, etc. and that skews the bell curve.

Here's a piece of info the originator of this string should consider....

Picking an airline on quick upgrades can be a huge mistake.

1. Don't go to a scab airline like Compass; the quick PIC will be a wash with how many people in the industry will consider your character.

2.The winds of change come in fast. As most of the previous post suggest, you can't really predict much of anything. All it takes is a few Tango Hotels to flip this industry on it's back. Pick a carrier that you can live with if things go south.

3. The jump to a Legacy, is not a for gone conclusion (although that seems to be the attitude with so many young pilots). As I've said before, "if I had a nickel for every guy that thought the regional job was just a temporary thing" then my 401k worries would be over.

Rick7, I'm surprised you haven't been blasted yet for the minority comment, keep your head low.......

Stick

Truth hurts. UAL is big on #3.

Really? When did this happen? :confused:

How can it be condsidered a scab airline when they have a flowthrough/back agreement. Sucks to be at Eagle for that reason also, by that line of thinking. :rolleyes:

Wrong!
 

I'm going to say "BS" to this comment. The pilot group of NWA are the folks that voted in this airline. There is nothing wrong with being a street Captain.

So if you are "correct"...which you aren't...would this make Big Sky, Lynx (Frontier's new regional), and many of the other regional airlines who have hired street Captains in the past, scab airlines??? HELL NO!

Get your facts straight before you post erroneous info buddy :p

The USAF is BIG on # 3 too partner.. and for Darn Good Reason..
 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_1489058065

for what’s its worth let me give you a bit o history, when Tuskegee airmen returned from Europe and north Africa during WWII Most if not all were told they were no jobs for them to fly mean while most Anglo Saxon males were getting Jobs flying, remember the Tuskegee project was suppose to prove that African American did not had the mechanical aptitude to operate complex machines i.e. AIRCRAFT.. for some who have a negative view of affirmative action remember this affirmative action was not designed to give a position or job to an unqualified person but to give a QUALIFIED minority a chance they would not have in other words we live in a world where for some to be fair and equal it has to be legislated that’s sad but that’s the world we are living in today, remember Bessie Coleman could not even get a Pilots License in American but had to go to FRANCE to earn it, I know for a fact that black professionals have to work 2 times as hard than their counter parts , but that just makes them 2 times better, I make no apologies to anyone when I put on my uniform and get behind a jet I know the struggles others before me have had and I am grateful for pioneers like the Red Tails and Bessie Coleman, one thing is for certain though we have come along way and we still Have a LONG way to Go. I long for the day when I can walk thru the terminal and not feel the weight of someone stare.

Also for what’s its worth it’s good to have diversity at any company especially in our industry after all we are appealing to a very large demographic.

In the Higher Education Amendments of 1992, Congress directed the Department of Education to enter into appropriate arrangements with the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) for a study of civilian aviation training programs. Congress wanted the study to discuss the implications of military downsizing for both training capacity and workforce diversity in the aviation industry. Specifically, Congress was interested in ways to increase the access of women and minorities to civilian aviation jobs, particularly high-skilled jobs as pilots and aviation maintenance technicians ( or "aircraft mechanics").

In 1993, 101,000 people earned their living as pilots and 139,000 worked as aircraft engine mechanics. Women and minorities are vastly underrepresented among pilots and aircraft mechanics. In 1990, 92 percent of pilots and 76 percent of aircraft mechanics were white men, compared with 43 percent of the civilian labor force. Less than 2 percent of pilots were black, less than 3 percent were of Hispanic origin. In 1990, 3.5 percent of pilots were women and 4.7 percent of aircraft mechanics were women.
Historically, the military has been an important source of trained professionals, especially pilots, for commercial aviation. The major carriers have relied on the military for about 75 percent of their pilots. As expected, the military's aviation-related workforce is not noticeably more diverse than the civilian aviation workforce

No problem with diversity here, and I don't think that one's flying ability has anuything to do with gender or race. However, I am violently opposed to lowering minimums for minorities...at any modern airline it's just not necessary, you can get by on your merits alone. If there are one or two small operations down in the old confederacy that might actually still discriminate, so what? Do you really want to work for people like that? I sure as h*ll don't and I'm as caucasian as they come.

While I appreciate the struggles of folks in the past (you're absolutely right about the Tuskegee guys) and I respect them for that it's not really that way in most of America today.

If minorities are under-represented in certain fields, the solution IS NOT to simply hire more regardless of qualification...this is fundamentally unfair to all the other qualified applicants competing for the jobs. I understand what happened in the past, but I had no part of it, don't treat people that way, and don't deserve to be punished for things that other people did before I was born (most of my ancestors hadn't arrived here at the time).

I think the solution to under-representation is to improve the educational opportunies very early on...give 'em the fundamental tools and let them succeed on their own.

Regardless of what al sharpton or jesse jackson might tell you, the vast majority of today's americans really have no issue with someone's minority status. Especially folks under the age of 60. Don't let some con-man's agenda lead you to believe you don't belong or fit in.

Here's an idea. Hire people solely on merit regardless of their color, race, religion or genitals! The best FO i ever had was a woman. Conversely, the worst FO i ever had was a (different) woman. I don't give two sh%ts about whats between your legs or what color your parents are. Just be good at what you do.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I makes me want to vomit when i think of the injustices visited upon minorities in the past and affirmative action at one time was probably appropriate. That time has passed. Although I haven't flown with anyone of color that i thought got where they are because of affirmative action. They all seemed talented and deserved to be there. I can't honestly say the same thing about some of the females I've flown with.


By the way, you win for best avatar. That histerical!

Not Drinking Al or Jesse koolaid but I have had my own experiences and I dont judge every white male or am I bitter,.. but to give you an example, I a few of us were having a discussion at riddle a few years ago in the student lounge when one of the student NOT of colour made the remark that the aviation world was a white mans world, well so happen the person who made the remark happen to be in an Advanced Aerodynamics class I was taking, verdict I busted my *** and EARNED an A he got a C... I dont aggree with lowing the MINS for anyone and thats not what I was inferring I was simply saying that though we have made some strides we still have a LONG WAY to go, I am simply saying that people still judge you because of what color you are, you dont know how many times I was mistaken for the Frigging Red Cap and but my Captiains has never had that problem, Rick I have some stories I would love to share with you over a few beers one day, you would call me a lier but I have nothing to gain by lying, besides I was not raised that way,

Did you figure out is was Mater from Cars...its C-5 mater

hey the world sucks sometimes. i hope that guy in your class was kidding. if not he's an idiot. I don't doubt that things still occur that have creepy racists overtones. Hiring a 25 year old women with no jet pic when a man could never get hired with the same quals won't help to fix that! (may actually increase animosity) If it makes you feel better i get mistaken for a skycap all the time and I'm so white you need shades to look at me directly in the sunshine.:D

Yeah I was about to say something about it too. Cars is a pixar movie, right? That's a friendly C-5 you have there. If all planes were so happy...

LOL ok Deez.. Ill be sure to keep my shades on and look out for you.....

<Off Topic Rant>

I am sorry 60 years ago that airmen who defended our country in WWII could not get a job. However, that is not my fault, nor is it anyone still alive today's fault.

I think it's interesting the liberals hate segregation and will fight tooth and nail to NOT classify people by race...but then support programs such as affirmative action which...um...classify people by race. If affirmative action was based on MERIT or FINANCIAL NEED than I'd be all for it. But helping out a poor black kid over a poor white kid just because one is black is still racist. And screwing us over doesn't make up for any wrong-doings in the past.

I'm all for "If you can fly it...have at it" I could careless if you're black, white, red, green, orange, or yellow. You could be a midget transvestite Eskimo for all I care. If you can do the job, rock and roll. I do have a problem sitting at the regional level while minorities/women get the fast track because 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago some other women and minorities got the shaft. I'm sorry that happened...but again...not my fault.

<End Rant>

You are totally Missing the point but Oh well....

Apparently. I don't want to get too far off topic, but after re-reading your post, I still fail to see how giving a female or black pilot a leg up over a white male does anything to fix the wrongs of the past. All it does is repeat them. I also understand that you quoted some statistics on the number of white males compared to females or minorities in aviation. I think it's ludacris to try and staff an airline based on the amount of miniorities in the total US workforce. What's more likely...US Airlines are trying to hold down miniorities and females...or miniorities and females are interested in careers other than aviation? I'm not saying this is a "White Man's World" (cuz that's f&%*ing ignorant) but is it too much to believe that maybe...just maybe...there's not that many females that really want to be pilots?

P.S. - This topic usually gets locked up quicker than a pedophile at the National Spelling Bee.

You are still not getting the point, but I dont know you and you dont know me, nor have you walked a Kilometer in my shoes so I dont expect you to understand FYI this was not just about females but about minorities in general
.. with that said I rest my case and you are free to vent or rant or what ever you want the stats I quoted are taken from the Air Force and the Federal Government not just some number I just made up.

Personally I don't think color or sex matters at all. Everyone knows of some exception walking around. My bud just got hired as an FO at Republic while below the mins on multi. No resume walk in or anything like that. My flight instructor from Zimbabwe was hired to NetJets with 1000hrs SIC jet and 4000hrs total time. My other CFI was hired with 700PIC jet to Continental flying a 737 and he's white. It's just a crap shoot however people seem to think the only reason someone that isn't like them, either sex or race, was hired is because of their difference.

The great thing about aviation is that it caters to all equally. I don't care if you're white, black, brown, blue, green, male, or female you have to meet the same PTS standards as everyone else. A fed doesn't care.

Affirmative action wasn't created to "give" more jobs to women or minorities. It was designed to simply make sure they had all the same opportunities to be hired. If african americans count for 12% of the population in the US then there is no reason why an industry should not have 12% of it's workers african american unless they simply weren't qualified.

One more thing.. if you think that the minority is a treat to you getting hired by a major.. look at the US census stats....Only
140 out of 124,825, or about 0.1 percent of the pilot population in the U.S., according to 2002 census data are african american females

There were 1,925 black male pilots, or 1.5 percent. I dont think you should worry,

I could not agree with you more TD..

[quote=rickair7777;182663
Getting called by a Major...total crapshoot. It can take anywhere from 18 months as a regional FO to never. The most important factors in order of importance:

...
3) Having an affirmative action affiliation.
...

[/quote]


Since the post wasn't about the 'fairness' of affirmitive action, but about what you can do to improve yor chances of getting hired by a major, I'd like to remind y'all, before you get too worked up, that WIA, the 99s, and OBAP do not limit thier memberships based on gender or race. So sign up, and get that box checked off, and move your resume from the really big stack to a slightly smaller stack...

That's funny!

So.. you're saying that some of the females were talentless and so they obviously must've gotten hired through affirmative action. Then how about some of the bad males you've flown with? What's their excuse?

http://www.checklistcomplete.com/women.htm

as far as this AA thing goes, i really dont think anyone's got a reason to even make it an issue. if you look up the stats above, the numbers are so negligible. there are less than 1 female airline pilot per 20 male airline pilots.. a little more than that at the regional level but a little less (like 1 per 25-30 depending on company) at the major level. like what.. 3% of ATPs are women? even if every single one of those 3% got hired through AA (and some guys here like to think so), that's still only 3 out of 100.

Technically true...as AA defenders will point out, AA legislation contains no specific language that puts in place quotas, etc.

However, the actual implementation of AA has resulted in exactly that...reverse discrimination. No better example can be found than the Bakke case decided before the Supreme Court.

In the airline business, the usual example of this is the hiring practices of UAL in the 90s.


Or that they simply were not interested in that line of work.

Aspiring black or other minority pilots will find the doors wide open these days. If their numbers are not representative of the population in general, then look to factors other than discrimination for the answer why.

You might be right, I do sometime get some of the start up airlines confused, but this I'm sure of. If a management (a holding company) starts a new airline to get around work rules, kick out old guys and replace them with new people for way less pay then they have created a scab airline. Anyone who goes their progressing on the back of others. Their is no more clear definition of a SCAB than that.

Stick

BLk, I've read your post, all of them, but this one got me ****ed. "I don't think you should worry"??? Do you feel there is some conspiracy out there to keep black people out of the cockpit? If so, you sir, are the racist!

It is very simple (as others have tried to explain)

You can not base the number of people in the pilot seat upon the number of people in society.

if 99% of the people that apply for a job at Bob's widget company are little green men, then it would make sense that the company would be 99% little green men.

Does Jet magazine have only 13% black people working there? Of course not. Does that make them racist? OF COURSE NOT! Their employee group is predicated on the percentage of people that apply for the job.

You want personal history? In 2000 the only airline I applied for was United. I had a connection, 2 type ratings, 7,000+ hours, former military, Embry Riddle. Every button pushed. When my 3rd female F.O. and one minority (indian by the way) got the job and I couldn't even get called for an interview, the writing is on the wall.

Very few people (their is always the village idiot) would look at you in a regional cockpit and think you got there because you are a minority. Getting in the regionals is so easy that they don't have time to be picky on any preference. But if you get hired at Delta next week with 1,000 hours and no PIC time, then don't be surprised if people feel that your success was based on the color of your skin.

You seem like a very smart man, and I applaud your efforts at ERAU. I would venture to guess that your grades are better than mine. I would view you as equal if we were sitting in the cockpit. Your denial of race in the industry is exactly that. Denial. I wish you the best.

Stick

I mentioned this in the Majors thread and got flack for it, but Affirmative action is alive and well in the airline Industry, and in the 90's UAL was notorious for this....................:(

Ok...so you quoted stats that only .1% of pilots are black women. And only 1.5% of pilots are black men. Is this FAA licensed pilots? Because all that tells me is that not that many minorities got their pilots license...unless racism kept them from trotting on down to the FBO and dropping some money on their career like all of us had to do.

It would be awfully hard to make 12% of pilots at regionals/majors/fractionals/135/whatever miniorities if only 1.6% of your available pilot pool are holding a pilots license....

And you're right...I don't know you and you don't me. And while I have never walked a mile in your shoes (cuz then I'd be a mile away...with your shoes)...you do not know my background. But this isn't a dispute about backgrounds, it's a dispute of whether it is fair or not to give hiring preferance to someone based solely on the subject of race. It wasn't right when they did it for white males, why is it suddenly ok to do it for minorities?

I'm impressed that this conversation has remained civil. More civil debate on this topic in our nation would do wonders to improve the racial tensions we deal with.

I think AA is a perfect example of good legislation that has been bent by execution to suite special interests at times. My impression (as several above stated) is that the point was to prevent discrimination between equally qualified people of different race,gender, etc. I agree that if all other factors are equal, the population of the career should match the general population. This is where we go wrong. Someone decided that means that we need to lower standards at times to entice minority groups into jobs. I don't think that was the point of the legislation.

I'm all for outreach programs to improve the distribution among the applicant pools and I agree that if everyone is qualified, there should be an even distribution. The problem is defining "equally qualified".

I think part of the problem(in today's times) starts with what value different communities put into education. I went to a fairly diverse high school (I too fall into the blinding caucasion bucket) and was horrified at some of the comments made to one of my African American classmates. We were enrolled in an AP Physics class where he was the only African American student and he was doing quite well. I remember distinctly when he was confront by some of his friends who declared that he "sounded too white" when he spoke. I think the pressures on young minority men and women to confrom to a culture that doesn't value education and non-material success is a large source of the tensions we as a society feel today. I get the impression that its not considered ok to succeed in fields dominated by white men because then you are considered a sell out.

Outreach programs to all young people to show them that there is more to life than instant gratification, bling, and money are critical to the continuing prowess of our society. This is a problem that all members of our society are going to face as we progress. Hard work isn't considered rewarding anymore unless you are given a trophy everyday.