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AVIATE don’t join !
This post is for anyone thinking about joining Aviate in hopes that it will better there chances at United. First of all there is NO SENIORITY LIST , that means once you reach your requirements they will pick you if they decide. There are people who joined Aviate before others and have not been called.
United also has contract obligations with the regional carriers so they will NOT take all of there Aviate participants as much as you would think. Instead they are hiring pilots with 2 years of experience mainly from Envoy,Piedmont and PSA. If your already in Aviate or at the Academy get ready for what’s next. You’ll be stuck at regional express carrier for United making $40 less than a AA regional. You’ll have no Senority number and you’ll be flying a dying fleet unless you go to MESA or GOJET. |
All such flow-like programs exist for one reason: To keep the feeders manned. They do NOT exist to expedite your progress to a legacy :rolleyes:
In this climate they have some utility for those with significant blackmarks, who might face uncertainty in getting an eventual call. For those with a decent record, in this climate, your best bet is OTS. If I was starting out today (knowing what I know now) I might do some kind of flow for the legacy I *least* wanted to work for... try for OTS with my top picks, but still have a plan C just in case. Statistically, OTS will be faster for most. |
Originally Posted by V1rotate2500
(Post 3460713)
This post is for anyone thinking about joining Aviate in hopes that it will better there chances at United. First of all there is NO SENIORITY LIST , that means once you reach your requirements they will pick you if they decide. There are people who joined Aviate before others and have not been called.
United also has contract obligations with the regional carriers so they will NOT take all of there Aviate participants as much as you would think. Instead they are hiring pilots with 2 years of experience mainly from Envoy,Piedmont and PSA. If your already in Aviate or at the Academy get ready for what’s next. You’ll be stuck at regional express carrier for United making $40 less than a AA regional. You’ll have no Senority number and you’ll be flying a dying fleet unless you go to MESA or GOJET. |
But But But isn't it awesome that over half of the applicants will be women or people of colors?
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Originally Posted by Fat Old Tired
(Post 3461306)
But But But isn't it awesome that over half of the applicants will be women or people of colors?
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Originally Posted by V1rotate2500
(Post 3460713)
This post is for anyone thinking about joining Aviate in hopes that it will better there chances at United. First of all there is NO SENIORITY LIST , that means once you reach your requirements they will pick you if they decide. There are people who joined Aviate before others and have not been called.
United also has contract obligations with the regional carriers so they will NOT take all of there Aviate participants as much as you would think. Instead they are hiring pilots with 2 years of experience mainly from Envoy,Piedmont and PSA. If your already in Aviate or at the Academy get ready for what’s next. You’ll be stuck at regional express carrier for United making $40 less than a AA regional. You’ll have no Senority number and you’ll be flying a dying fleet unless you go to MESA or GOJET. I do NOT believe in flows or programs of any sort. Example, look at Compass Airlines, owned by Northwest up/down flow and now they are no longer with us. (RIP Conpass). Just saying this industry is two shades of messed up and hope I didn’t just date myself here 😂 |
Originally Posted by PUNK
(Post 3461544)
The Aviation industry is full of white conservatives. Give minorities a chance. How many airline pilots are Asian, black, Indian, Middle Eastern? Not a whole lot. Without what united is doing, it will continue to be run by old white boomers.
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Originally Posted by PUNK
(Post 3461544)
The Aviation industry is full of white conservatives. Give minorities a chance. How many airline pilots are Asian, black, Indian, Middle Eastern? Not a whole lot. Without what united is doing, it will continue to be run by old white boomers.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...h=93e5f5e47252 |
Originally Posted by PUNK
(Post 3461544)
The Aviation industry is full of white conservatives. Give minorities a chance. How many airline pilots are Asian, black, Indian, Middle Eastern? Not a whole lot. Without what united is doing, it will continue to be run by old white boomers.
The issue for diversity is two-fold: Young Men: Either don't develop an interest in aviation while young due to cultural differences compared to whites. Or don't have access to the education and/or finance necessary to pursue the career. I'm OK with and would advocate addressing that by enabling access to the foundational stuff at a very young age, get them off to a good start, show what's possible and available, and let them decide. You can always join the mil, I didn't have money as a teenager so that's what I did. Back then I could have also attended Hometown State U for less $1K/semester and worked construction or even fast food to live. Today you'd need financial aid even for that, but it is available. But when you actually get hired for a job like this, it needs to be competitive on an equal footing. Young Women: Guess what? Most are just not interested in technology, airplanes, or being gone all the time during child-bearing/raising years. For those who are, opportunities abound. I don't see the problem. That one is all a bunch of political BS, because they know it will NEVER change and so they get to keep making woke hay out of the issue in perpetuity. Want to do outreach so young girls know what's available? Sure, why not. But how many of us pilots have male family members in aviation? I'm good for three generations, and the only reason it's not four is because they didn't even have aircraft carriers in Great-Grandad's era (Grandad flew off the Langley). How many of us have female family members in aviation? I have an Aunt who got a PPL. They *should* have had the same opportunities (education, money, mentors) as their brothers, at least since 1980 or so. My sisters and cousins are mostly all white-collar professionals... they *could* have done aviation if they wanted to. And don't get me started on the idea that women should get special out-of-seniority schedules and paid leave that's not available to dads or men in general for other reasons they might have :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 3461742)
Nobodies excluding anybody, it's been quite the opposite for decades. EVERY desirable job or employer in this country has been falling all over itself to hire diversity for the last 20-30 years. Every employer I've ever had (except the one the that provided heavy marine services to the fishing industry, they were all Italians).
The issue for diversity is two-fold: Young Men: Either don't develop an interest in aviation while young due to cultural differences compared to whites. Or don't have access to the education and/or finance necessary to pursue the career. I'm OK with and would advocate addressing that by enabling access to the foundational stuff at a very young age, get them off to a good start, show what's possible and available, and let them decide. You can always join the mil, I didn't have money as a teenager so that's what I did. Back then I could have also attended Hometown State U for less $1K/semester and worked construction or even fast food to live. Today you'd need financial aid even for that, but it is available. But when you actually get hired for a job like this, it needs to be competitive on an equal footing. Young Women: Guess what? Most are just not interested in technology, airplanes, or being gone all the time during child-bearing/raising years. For those who are, opportunities abound. I don't see the problem. That one is all a bunch of political BS, because they know it will NEVER change and so they get to keep making woke hay out of the issue in perpetuity. Want to do outreach so young girls know what's available? Sure, why not. But how many of us pilots have male family members in aviation? I'm good for three generations, and the only reason it's not four is because they didn't even have aircraft carriers in Great-Grandad's era (Grandad flew off the Langley). How many of us have female family members in aviation? I have an Aunt who got a PPL. They *should* have had the same opportunities (education, money, mentors) as their brothers, at least since 1980 or so. My sisters and cousins are mostly all white-collar professionals... they *could* have done aviation if they wanted to. And don't get me started on the idea that women should get special out-of-seniority schedules and paid leave that's not available to dads or men in general for other reasons they might have :rolleyes: If every occupation does not mirror a cross section of society, it's due to barriers. Not personal choices, not interests, not motivation. Barriers. Sweden, socialist progressive utopia that it is, was aghast that there weren't enough female engineers and male schoolteachers 20 years ago. They attempted to rectify the problem through scholarships, public education, "Mentoring," ... The result after 20 years: There was even more disparity in occupations than before the effort. Liberal social scientists reluctantly acknowledged the results. It turns out women like people and guys like things. People choose their paths. |
Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
(Post 3461760)
It turns out women like people and guys like things. People choose their paths.
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And don’t forget that you have to have basically perfect attendance and never turn down a junior assignment!
Aviate is a joke. |
Originally Posted by PUNK
(Post 3461544)
The Aviation industry is full of white conservatives. Give minorities a chance. How many airline pilots are Asian, black, Indian, Middle Eastern? Not a whole lot. Without what united is doing, it will continue to be run by old white boomers.
“Give them a chance”?! YHGTBFKM. Do some research on just how much “chance” women and minorities have been given. Talk about ignorant. |
Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER
(Post 3463524)
Maybe because that’s the democratic this profession tends to attract. Ever think of that, Skippy?
“Give them a chance”?! YHGTBFKM. Do some research on just how much “chance” women and minorities have been given. Talk about ignorant. |
Originally Posted by skblu
(Post 3463672)
Democratic 😂
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Originally Posted by V1rotate2500
(Post 3460713)
This post is for anyone thinking about joining Aviate in hopes that it will better there chances at United. First of all there is NO SENIORITY LIST , that means once you reach your requirements they will pick you if they decide. There are people who joined Aviate before others and have not been called.
United also has contract obligations with the regional carriers so they will NOT take all of there Aviate participants as much as you would think. Instead they are hiring pilots with 2 years of experience mainly from Envoy,Piedmont and PSA. If your already in Aviate or at the Academy get ready for what’s next. You’ll be stuck at regional express carrier for United making $40 less than a AA regional. You’ll have no Senority number and you’ll be flying a dying fleet unless you go to MESA or GOJET. |
Originally Posted by CLE to IAH;[url=tel:3465628
3465628[/url]]I heard they skip over you if you don’t know the proper usage of there/their/they’re or your & you’re
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Originally Posted by skblu
(Post 3463672)
Democratic 😂
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There is a bullet point list of criteria you must meet in the past 5 years to transition to United. However there is another sentance after that statement saying it can be earlier based on thier discretion.
If I have one of those bullet points say this year, then joined a United partner, opt in, and meet my transition requirements in 2.5 years, can I still join? Even though I am still in that 5 year window. How often do they slash the 5 year nose-clean record requirement |
So what's the deal with people reaching thier transition date and meeting all the requirements, and then united says no and gives them the boot with no reason given?
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Originally Posted by EJETflyer
(Post 3825374)
So what's the deal with people reaching thier transition date and meeting all the requirements, and then united says no and gives them the boot with no reason given?
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Originally Posted by EJETflyer
(Post 3825374)
So what's the deal with people reaching thier transition date and meeting all the requirements, and then united says no and gives them the boot with no reason given?
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As far as AVIATE and everything like it:
Where there is bait there is a hook, don’t look for the bait, look for the hook. - Confucius |
I was a super early Aviate participant. Worst career mistake of my life since my goal (at the time) was UA. They treated us like garbage, I made less money than all of my peers, sat 6 day blocks of airport reserve, wasn’t allowed to call in sick more than 3 times a year under threat of program termination, and then UA told us retroactively that we had to get even more PIC time before we’d qualify for the transition to United. They also decided that my time sitting during covid related training delays didn’t count toward the program. That was when they changed the slogan from “the fastest way to UA” to “the most secure way to UA.”
A buddy of mine went to Republic the same day I went to UAX. Guess who is at UA while my Aviate friends still rot at places like Commuteair or gave up on it entirely. I wouldn’t go to UA even if the CJO came with a Lambo after my experience working under them. |
Originally Posted by C5Mafia
(Post 3829475)
I was a super early Aviate participant. Worst career mistake of my life since my goal (at the time) was UA. They treated us like garbage, I made less money than all of my peers, sat 6 day blocks of airport reserve, wasn’t allowed to call in sick more than 3 times a year under threat of program termination, and then UA told us retroactively that we had to get even more PIC time before we’d qualify for the transition to United. They also decided that my time sitting during covid related training delays didn’t count toward the program. That was when they changed the slogan from “the fastest way to UA” to “the most secure way to UA.”
A buddy of mine went to Republic the same day I went to UAX. Guess who is at UA while my Aviate friends still rot at places like Commuteair or gave up on it entirely. I wouldn’t go to UA even if the CJO came with a Lambo after my experience working under them. Aviate, American Wholly Owned Regionals and Endeavor all have the same basic premise. The carrot is an eventual (maybe) no interview job at the partner carrier. For some it even works out. The stick (and the main point of the program) is to keep you in line. Don't call in sick, fly fatigued, don't push back against abuse, etc. Go to the airline which hires you but if you have multiple choices go to the program for the Big 3 you would least like to work for then spend all your free time at the regional going to job fairs for the other 2. Hopefully you get hired, if not you have the flow as a backup. |
Originally Posted by tallpilot
(Post 3829562)
C5s airport reserve hell is probably the worst in the industry besides true bottom feeders. It's a shame that hasn't been addressed in the contract. Although I guess big United likes airport standby too. I'm sorry you got stuck there because you couldn't fly enough.
Aviate, American Wholly Owned Regionals and Endeavor all have the same basic premise. The carrot is an eventual (maybe) no interview job at the partner carrier. For some it even works out. The stick (and the main point of the program) is to keep you in line. Don't call in sick, fly fatigued, don't push back against abuse, etc. Go to the airline which hires you but if you have multiple choices go to the program for the Big 3 you would least like to work for then spend all your free time at the regional going to job fairs for the other 2. Hopefully you get hired, if not you have the flow as a backup. I worry for a lot for the people still coming up through flight training that will follow a path that will potentially stop them from attaining their career goals due to flow BS like this. They get promised a lot without realizing it’s a scam. |
Originally Posted by tallpilot;[url=tel:3829562
3829562]Aviate, American Wholly Owned Regionals and Endeavor all have the same basic premise. The carrot is an eventual (maybe) no interview job at the partner carrier. For some it even works out.
Originally Posted by tallpilot;[url=tel:3829562
3829562]The stick (and the main point of the program) is to keep you in line. Don't call in sick, fly fatigued, don't push back against abuse, etc.
Originally Posted by C5Mafia;[url=tel:3829677
3829677[/url]]Oh I luckily had the timing to bail out of that dumpster fire to a LUVly place that worked out better than UA would have for me in the end a while ago. I do know plenty that are stuck there now though that hiring is back in a dip.
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Originally Posted by John Carr
(Post 3829686)
Imagine the OG CPP pilots that ACTUALLY had to interview for that, to be turned down to the tune of ~75%, just cuz.
It worked like a champ summer 2016-17. The majority of th ~75% mentioned were all able end up at a good place, many better than UAL for whatever personal reason. |
Originally Posted by tallpilot
(Post 3829562)
Aviate, American Wholly Owned Regionals and Endeavor all have the same basic premise. The carrot is an eventual (maybe) no interview job at the partner carrier. For some it even works out. The stick (and the main point of the program) is to keep you in line. Don't call in sick, fly fatigued, don't push back against abuse, etc. |
Originally Posted by ThatChecks
(Post 3830072)
at least for the AA WOs, it is a true senoirty based flow. When its your turn, its your turn. Only caveat is that the flow only happens when AA is running classes. So right now, with classes being paused, flow is paused. But thats it. Just do your job like any normal person, don't do anyting really stupid and you'll get called when its your turn in line.
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Originally Posted by tallpilot
(Post 3829562)
Aviate, American Wholly Owned Regionals and Endeavor all have the same basic premise. The carrot is an eventual (maybe) no interview job at the partner carrier. For some it even works out. . now, if you're bending metal, that's different. the other non owned contractors have an unguaranteed flow. They can, and do, find any reason not not flow them when they have enough qualified street applicants. |
Originally Posted by tallpilot
(Post 3830148)
That's sorta true except for the people that get fired. I know at least one and it certainly wouldn't have happened with a real union. The bar for really stupid is much lower than it is at normal airlines.
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.....
All you have to do if you're a guy is show up one day in operations with a dress on and high heels-----BOOM! YOU'RE IN!!!!!!!
don't forget the lipstick. |
Originally Posted by Boxhound
(Post 3831562)
All you have to do if you're a guy is show up one day in operations with a dress on and high heels-----BOOM! YOU'RE IN!!!!!!!
don't forget the lipstick. |
Heard that a bunch of Aviate participants got kicked out with the latest arbitrary rule change to the program. Anybody have more info?
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Originally Posted by AerChungus
(Post 3832946)
Heard that a bunch of Aviate participants got kicked out with the latest arbitrary rule change to the program. Anybody have more info?
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I'm not sure about aviate, but back in the day I was one of the suckers who stuck around ExpressJet waiting for the CPP program. Passed up a bunch of great opportunities only to fail the Hogan twice. My current employer offered me an interview three years prior to when I actually got tired of the CPP shenanigans and jumped ship. That's a lot of seniority to give up. Moral of the story: don't pass up an opportunity for one of these programs. Best of luck to you all currently in the pipeline.
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Originally Posted by AboveMins
(Post 3833063)
I'm not sure about aviate, but back in the day I was one of the suckers who stuck around ExpressJet waiting for the CPP program. Passed up a bunch of great opportunities only to fail the Hogan twice. My current employer offered me an interview three years prior to when I actually got tired of the CPP shenanigans and jumped ship. That's a lot of seniority to give up. Moral of the story: don't pass up an opportunity for one of these programs. Best of luck to you all currently in the pipeline.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 3831632)
Just need to resist the temptation every time you walk past baggage claim.
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Originally Posted by salukipilot
(Post 3833128)
Are we still blacklisted from applying to United if we fly for an Aviate carrier but aren’t a part of the program? I fly for JSX and didn’t even know we were a participant.
I have a friend at Mesa who is not part of Aviate (he opted NOT to join when it was just check-the-box-and-you're-in) and he has not been precluded from applying. |
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