Also they could require additional OE for CFI's, or require that they be paired with specially selected senior mentor CA's for X number of hours.

There are ways to do it, but they'd have to make some changes.

​​​​​​Don't like the work? Don't do it.

Also, Yes. RJs and A320s fly basically the same schedules these days.

Not exactly. I like my transcons, and HI. But it is a lot better than commuter prop schedules... maybe better than SWA too :)

Awwww. Come on four 3-4 legs a day to essentially go no further away that 500 miles from where you started the day is riveting! Riveting I tell ya!!

I would venture to guess that the probationary period for low-time newhires would eventually pack a little more weight. I had one captain opine that we need a whole different division of a supervisory pilot mentor of sorts, kind of like a three month IOE.

One thing I’ve heard from a lot of captains is that even though the mil F-teeners may not have similar airline experience, their trainable nature has them caught up fairly quickly.

Its going to be interesting in any case.

The flying is already being done under the same banner in a complex jet. If the FO has 1500 hours and the captain has a year or two under their belt, what does it matter whether a route is flown in a CRJ versus a 737? We don't have RJs falling out of the sky due to lack of experience.

I’ve flown both of those jets and the 737 is certainly a less friendly place for a 1500 new to 121 pilot.

Less friendly? Sure, I'll buy that. Less safe, though? I don't agree with that.

Regarding people staying at Regionals because of the money:

Im WO AA F/O. The only change I’ve seen is not as many people bailing for LCC’s. I haven’t seen anyone staying with an offer from a legacy or UPS/FedEx, because most people know that would be incredibly shortsighted, unless maybe someone is close to retirement here or other very specific circumstances.

That being said, who knows what’s going to happen. I grew up around the industry, have seen the suffering and am thrilled to be here. I drive to work, and as second year F/O my W2 will show 6 figures for the first time in my life. Pretty good gig.

Agreed, and the average mainline capt will have much more flight time than the RJ capt.

Certainly less safe in the hands of a 1500 hour CFI.

A 737 less safe that a crj? That’s a problem with 737 not the 1500 hr pilot.

That’s a problem with a training department, not the airplane. The 737 is ridiculously easy to understand and fly.

1,500 hour CFI’s join the ranks everyday at any regional. The regional upgrade success rate is much lower than at the Majors for good reason. Some of the new hires will unintentionally sabotage a flight more than a few times a trip. Some are actually rock solid, but it’s obviously inconsistent and you’re always on high alert out of the left seat. Amazingly that’s probably the least stressful part of the job for me personally.

At the end of the day a jet is a jet and I can promise you nothing sets you up more for failure than some of these clapped out regional jets.

Don’t read into it too much. All I’m saying is that after having flown the CRJ-200 and the 737-300, 500, 700, 800, and MAX 8, a CFI with 1500 hours is going to have more of a handful with a 737. I’m referring to the NG or MAX really, as thank goodness the Classics have mostly been taken behind the barn and shot.

Does pulling back not make the trees get smaller in the 737? Does the pressure in the hydraulics come from something other than pumps? Oh, how about navigation modes, is there more to a descent plan than a CRJ that really doesn’t do any descent planning for you? How about gas, is it all gravity transfer so you have to put the ball out to switch from one wing to another? I know, it’s the third and fourth engine that really separates the 73 from the crj.

Have you ever flown one aircraft type that was easier and more pilot friendly than another type that you’ve flown?

If you answered “no” then you’re being less than honest. Don’t get all butthurt. Give me a break 🙄

I found an old trip pairing in my attic a few months ago, one day had 8 freaking legs on it, pre-117.

I'd rather fly the CRJ than a guppy. Prefer DIY VNAV to all the knobology, at least as an FO.


Yup.

With enough years and hours you get used to anything, but there's a difference in the beginning, and that lasts longer than IOE.

I find the 737 was more difficult than the CRJ-700 and EMB-135/140/145. Maybe difficult isn’t the right word—maybe just more “busy.”

The Saab 340 and ATR were much harder than the RJs.

I also find that the current 121 training environment is the least difficult and most friendly that it has ever been.

You can get way behind in a 737 and get in trouble in almost all aspects (i.e. flying, or FMS, or systems, etc.) a lot easier and quicker than any Regional aircraft. Anybody who tells you different or that it is basically "the same" is being either disingenuous or woefully out of touch. Yoou know the type, they've been in the 737 way too long to know different, basically any Legacy guy who has been there more than 10 years which is why they always give such horrible advice to new pilots.

I’m just gonna say it.

they fly 737s/320s all the time at 250 hours in EU. You’re all arguing with your egos.


There’s also the principle of primacy. If you’re gonna fly the 737 your whole career you have zero negative transference if it’s your first jet.


I think we can all agree these comments including this one are a waste of our time.

now. Let’s talk about how we know more about flying any airplane than management. Because we can all agree with that one! Am I right lads and and lasses?

Is this the part where we try to say how experience doesn't matter? (It's rhetorical, I know you dont actually think that).. I know how I would have probably reacted at 250 hrs if we're down to emer-power at night...........Yea europe throws guys in the right seat at real low time, but lets be honest at 250 hrs your still pretty clueless even though you've passed a check ride......Sorry it's my fault, i've got this nasty habit of derailing threads recently.........

They crash them more than we do.

okay okay…. But is a Miata a sports car? That’s the real debate

God damnit.






YES

Does it matter if you wouldn't have one?

They do indeed. I attribute that primarily to multi crew licenses and no solo time during initial training.

I agree with the person who said we're arguing with our own egos. The advantage to starting out at a large carrier instead of the current regional model is the experience of mentors.

In the 80s (the last time people with wet commercials were hired at big airlines) new hires went into the engineer seat and watched airline operations for a year or two before upgrading to the right seat. The captains had decades of experience and in most cases were able to provide effective mentorship.

I've seen plenty of competent and safe 25 year old captains over the past few years but they lack depth of experience and having them as the primary mentors for the next generation of civilian pilots is unwise.

Pretending that the purpose of the regionals is to reduce the liability of the airline when an inexperienced crew kills people is absurd. Their only purpose (directly stated by Kirby) was to create a C scale wage. In that regard they have been utterly fantastic over the past two decades. Every single pilot should be cheering the end of that nightmare.

Absolutely. However the idea thats it'll go away completely...I'm not so sure. The legacies wanted their C scale but they also wanted service to airports that they couldn't profitably serve that would supplement the hub feed and fill their planes. They may want to put a 220 on every RJ route now but they simply cant do it. They dont have the planes and they certainly dont have the pilots. If they did they would have taken the flying back as soon as regionals started to pay $216/hr. Why contract that out when you can take it in house? Answer: They have no choice.

I think the real question is whether or not the CURRENT regional model is sustainable rather than imploding. They have been forced to pay starting wages that compete with the legacies and Captain pay that would theoretically keep pilots from going to at least the ULCC's. How long will that last? Most regional pilots will still leave to go to the big 6 which is still an astronomical number of pilots that will leave. I think that several regionals will go away and a few big ones will survive in a smaller form. Best guesses how long the hiring continues and how long until the regionals no longer need to pay these wages and declare chap 11 and reduce those contracts back to a true C scale...

The problem IMHO is who the majors are hiring. If the majors were hiring a random mix of people from the regional seniority list it MIGHT be possible for the regionals to simply get smaller but to stay viable. But that isn’t the case. They are disproportionately hiring CAs and senior FOs. And that causes them to run afoul of the 1000 hr SIC before upgrade rule.


Regionals are bleeding people with high SIC and the ones left behind are not upgrade eligible while CAs are leaving without flying long enough to allow the FO next to them to become upgrade eligible. Right now regionals are surviving on DECs (that are becoming increasingly rare) and “lifer” CAs too close to retirement to benefit economically by a jump to the majors. It isn’t’t sustainable.

Barring a serious recession (which might happen) it’s a negative feedback loop. A death spiral.

It’s critical care but this is just supply chain. 1 year from now the problem will be over. We will have sufficient upgrade eligible FOs. Part of this problem is the LCCs and legacies that started hiring without TPIC. Shortly they will have enough.

Only for people who don’t know/care what a sports car is…and yes, of course it is..same as a TR6, MG, Corvette or 308GTS.

Yes, their primary purpose is lower wages, and that includes all labor not just pilots.

But liability is a factor, and underwriting is an art as well as science. Insurance costs less if you can articulate the experience and quality of your pilots. This is not my speculation, but fact from airline management people. They do proclaim their hiring standards to make their case to under-writers. Some may be self-insured IIRC, but as public companies they have to self-insure to adequate levels, and there are accounting standards which dictate some methodology.

That's not the reason for FFD, but it's a fringe benefit. If they bring small jets in house, and hire CFI's presumably the calculus would change.

Dash 8 Q400 is the hardest type to fly currently in operation.

A ramper put the lie to this.

If you do not have enough CAs flying to generate enough SIC hours to get your FOs up to enough hours to upgrade themselves its more than just supply chain, it’s classic theory of constraints. No amount of shoving 0-121 time FOs in at the bottom will help if you are losing SIC experience hours to departing FOs and CAs faster than your remaining CAs can generate them. In fact, the more FOs you toss in at the bottom the fewer hours each will fly and the longer it will be before they can upgrade, allowing even more time for the majors to hire away your CAs and near-eligible FOs.

I disagree with about 80% of what you post, but in this one area, you are absolutely correct. Classic systems theory in action. Bertalanffy would be proud of your analysis

They will eventually get the hours to upgrade and will and the problem will be solved. They are not getting zero hours. The senior will fly more. Your assertion is true if the flying is evenly spread among the junior. It’s not.

They will leave before they get the hours to upgrade. Or they will get the hours to upgrade and leave instead of upgrading. Or they will upgrade for a few weeks and then leave. Either way, it’s not a sustainable model