I failed my 121 training, any advice ?
 

Hello everyone,

I wanted to create a post and hear some advice from some of you who may have either been in a similar situation, or know someone who has been, and how they moved forward. (Im sorry if this is posted in the wrong section, if so please let me know and I will repost) I was hired with my first regional airline job at the beginning of the year in March and was so excited. A few months before that, I was in a car accident as a passenger sitting in the back seat. A driver fell asleep on the wheel and rear ended the car I was in. I ended up being hospitalized for a few days. A few days before training I went to see an AME to reapply for my 1st class medical and it was not approved, but pending. I made mention of this to the company before starting my training. During my 3rd week when we got into systems I started experiencing pain in my lower back that was shooting pain down my leg. The pain got so bad towards the end I couldn't sit or focus for to long. I should have made mention of this sooner and delayed my training, but I was so eager and motivated to complete my training I kept going. During my systems exam I came a few points short scoring a 77 out of the 80 requirement. I was incredibly disappointed with myself. The company pulled me to the side and had let me go due to performance. The next day I saw a doctor and had MRI taken and I ended up getting back surgery a week later. Turns out I had several Herniated disks pressing on nerves that was being agitated from sitting for long periods of time. After my procedure, I feel great. I have no pain and my 1st class medical JUST came back in the mail last month, after many doctor visits and FAA review. I have been applying to practically every regional airline and I either have not been given a chance to interview due to my application being denied. I was able to interview with one company however they mentioned they are slowing down the FO hiring due to them having a captain shortage and they would keep my application on file.

-My question is, am I not getting any calls from the regionals because I did not successfully complete my training? -
-Is it possible it because a lot of Regional airlines are having a difficult time finding captains they are slowing down the FO hiring?

I would also like to know how do I move forward from this. I have been back at my flight school instructing, but im getting frustrated and beginning to feel like I'm never going to get hired. I would even be open to applying to 135 ops but I have been trying very hard for regional airlines due to the training.

Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

It’s well known that Mesa’s standards are the lowest in the industry. I’m not intending to insult Mesa just offering what most would say is factual information. Have you applied to them?

What I’m about to say next is purely opinion- If you do get a bite from any aviation employer it would probably be best to just say you failed a test getting a 77 out of 80 and they let you go. You’ve learned what you need to do to be successful moving forward. I.E. group study etc. Most of any interview is playing the game and telling them what they want to hear.

I totally understand your situation and how you got where you are but employers don’t like “complicated situations.” So keep it very simple.

I can’t imagine any interview or application going well if you go into the weeds trying to explain what you posted here. Just my two cents. I wish you all the best moving forward.

First of all, MOST of the regionals are slowing down FO training due to a CA shortage so don’t take it personal. While you aren’t REQUIRED to give anyone any details of your medical history, you were already accepted by one regional - the one you failed - so you must have people there who remember you and if your failure was as narrow as you indicate, explaining to them - with documentation of the subsequent surgery and current recertification - may be helpful. If they have bunches of FOs on reserve getting little flying because of a paucity of CAs it won’t make any difference, but if they are actively hiring zero - 121 time FOs they might well give you a second chance.

failing that, any multi engine turbine flying will help. Would I want a career at Ameriflight? No. Would I work for Ameriflight long enough to get to the next rung on the career ladder? Yeah, I would.

Thank you for the reply. What you mention makes sense. I have to find the fine line of what to share and what to keep to myself. I wanted to share to the readers my situation as a whole, but I do understand possibly not sharing to much with the employer as that may work against me.
Where do people go when they are in a similar situation? I may be wrong but don't most charter companies want experienced pilots with jet time or jet experience. I have been leaning towards the regionals because I understand the training footprint works to train piston pilots to jet.

That's usually a factor, although in the current hiring climate it should be a minor factor.

That is occurring, so they might be relegating those with blackmarks to the "maybe next year" pile.

You will, don't worry about that.

You have to explain what happened, take responsibility, and tell them what you learned. Whatever you do, don't blame anyone else ( guess you could blame the guy who hit you in this case lol).

In your case the lesson learned was don't do training if you have significant outside distractions (health, family, etc). Wives commonly file for divorce while you're in new-hire training, and those guys essentially always flunk out unless they request a LOA and come back after the dust settles.

They shouldn't really hold it against you, the accident wasn't your fault and you were motivated to finish but you just didn't know what you didn't know about 121 training. Your health issue is resolved, and you know about distractions now.

You may want to do a job fair or meet and greet to get some face time with a human being to explain what happened.

Also be aware that they are generally less tolerant of ground school/written test failures than sim/IOE failures... academics is almost 100% about work ethic and motivation. I don't think this applies in your case, you have an alibi but you want to make sure that potential employers have the whole story, not just that you flunked a written.

If things don't pick up after the new year, you might want to do 135 but research their training and management practices carefully.

Smaller 135 companies need people too. I walked in 2 months ago to a local 135 cargo company and asked them if they needed part time help and I had ZERO jet time. I had about 250hrs of multi time thats it, again no jet experience and now I'm in a Lear 35/55 flying for them a few days a month. For what its worth, the CP said why he hired me was i came in person rather than e-mail a resume. Good luck

Cape Air
 

I don't have any real answers to your immediate questions. With the hesitation of unintentionally upsetting someone my first thought was that I've heard Cape Air is in need of Captains. I know it's not what you're hoping for, but they pay a livable, it's not instructing, there is a path to a paid-for ATP, possibility to live in Puerto Rico (new life experience). Place to reset, get a known training program pass, spend a couple years and then start working back to the jet world.

If you still aren't getting calls because of the slowdown in FO hiring, it might be an option in the future.

I've never worked there, I don't really know anyone that has. I have heard they will try guys that have 121 failures.



Best of luck bruddah!

FWIW, I think the slowdown on FO hiring is gonna be short lived. I wouldn't sign any long term contracts or anything like that. I d get a service to look at your apps and get some professional advice on how to best prepare yourself for when FO hiring picks back up.

I'm incredibly thankful for each and everyone one of your responses. Thank you for your input.
I will keep sending out applications and try to attend as many meet and greets like mentioned. I am also going to do some research and look into some of the smaller 135 operations.
I will also look into possibly getting a professional to help me with my applications. Any recommendations for a particular company that specializes in reviewing airline applications?

Thank you

you will get another shot. Or more. Don’t worry. I’ve heard of much worse and it was never an issue. What every one else said above is correct. Don’t sweat it. Not worth it in the long run to your health.

That was the case before they raised year 1 FO pay to $100/hr. Now they can pick an choose who they hire.


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They probably will get more selective but I know a new hire who hasn’t flown in 12 years- not once. Only took 2 refresh lessons in a 172 and got hired- post pay raise. Yeah that bar needs to be raised a tad bit.

It shouldn’t be that hard to get hired at another 121. 8 out of 30 of my class at a regional were asked to resign and everyone who wanted to go to another 121 eventually did. Did you try Air Wisconsin? A few guys from my class went there. Some also went to endeavor, republic and horizon.

Maybe hiring at the regionals is a bit different now compared to winter of 2021 though.

Look at applying at 135 companies such as FlyExclusive. They require you to have your ATP/CTP done (which I assume you have). You can go there, get an idea of a different type of flying, and then you ca nlook at going to a ULCC after some time building.

I did a consultation with Raven a while back and it was a good experience. Several other pilots recommended them to me and they shoot straight. Fees are not unreasonable for the service.

https://ravencareers.com/

OP, two points I’d like to stress to you. Get another job that is considered a step up from instructing. It’s imperative that you prove yourself to other employers like the regionals you’re try for by successfully passing a Part 135 etc. training curriculum. That step will more than balance out your previous failure.

Freight, right seat 135 passenger ops (Boutique Air for example), just anything that’s considered a career progression step from flight instructing. In the meantime keep hitting up the regionals hard. I think one or more of them will give you a chance to interview.

That brings me to my second point. Absolutely get an interview prep before going on any interviews. They’re not that expensive is my understanding and it’s imperative that you be groomed on how to properly explain your training failure, how you’ve handled it and what you’ve learned from it. In my opinion, an interview prep will do you good and you pay for it once and have the information and the grooming that you need for multiple interviews.

Good luck. It’s a minor speed bump. Keep pressing and you’ll achieve your goals.

I just have a question for the OP—they let you go after your first written test fail? There was no further opportunity? Is there more to the story aside from a medical condition which you implied impaired your abilities to pass the systems test the first time?

The way you own this will determine how your future interviews go.

It's axiomatic that it's easiest to find a job if you have a job. If you're working as an instructor now, keep putting in the applications. It's a slow(er) period right now, but keep applying. When asked, explain your situation. You had a low score, were removed from training, and you were struggling with a medical issue which overtook you, and has been addressed.

A failure under 121 will follow you, presently, for life. From a writer's perspective, nobody likes a perfect character. It's not interesting, nobody trusts that character. People love flawed characters. You're not being written, but your story is. You have a flaw in your past; show that it's in your past, show that you can move forward, put some distance between you and that training failure, and looking forward employers will be far more interested in your recent history than your ancient history. Apply to all the regionals. You'll pass, you'll get hired, you'll get some history reflecting this, and you'll look back to have a good story to tell in future interviews about a failure you've experienced, and how you overcame it, and you'll be able to use it as a selling point to show a stronger, more determined you. That's the way it works.

People aren't investing in interview coaching and preparation like they used to. It wouldn't hurt you to do so. If for nothing else, our own confidence, in telling your story.

I had the same question. I am not stating there are truths being left out here, but you are allowed to be re-trained after any failure and given the ability for a second attempt. But it is also possible that said airline knew they had an excess of FOs and used this one failure as an excuse to shed a little financial burden. Who knows.

But to the OP, as already stated, an easy way to come back to the 121 world is to prove to them you can be successful. Find a 135 operation that works for you and put in some time, preferably one where you can either be hired into a PIC position or a quick upgrade into one. However, I would advise against going anywhere forcing a training contract. Ameriflight just posted several openings within their company, Southern Airways Express & Cape Air are always hurting for people too. I worked for Berry Aviation and they are always looking for pilots (it can be brutal, but you’ll build solid experience there).

Best of luck, you’ll succeed as long as you keep putting in the work.

In the past I recall there were regionals who did not allow a re-test for the written... they basically assumed that a multiple choice written is all about work ethic and if you can't even get that right they don't want to waste the sim money on you.

I also recall at least one that had a mems & lims test on day one... you had to pass in order to come back on day two. Obviously that was back when they gave you a study package well in advance.

The regs allow for a couple strikes, but the airlines don't have to.

I would have assumed that in today's climate they would be more forgiving, but maybe not.

Unfortunately, I was not given a second opportunity to retake the systems exam. They pulled me in a room and asked what happened. I explained I had been having a difficult time since I began my training and how I was having difficulties retaining information / sitting for long periods of time. They mentioned had I said something previously before the exam they may have been able to delay the training or work something out (which, once again is completely my fault). I was encouraged to resign and told this would not get listed on the PRIA. However, as mentioned I have not been hearing back from airlines after submitting applications so I have been skeptical. I'm still trying for figure out the best way to own my faults without making excuses and putting it on my health. Because the truth is, like many have said before, regardless of my circumstances I could have handled the situation better which would have had a better outcome.


I will add since my last post I did reach out to someone from the company, in the training department, explaining my situation and they encouraged me to re-apply and provide my medical paperwork. So I am feeling somewhat optimistic. I will continue to send out my applications.
Thank you all for your feedback and advice. It has all been very helpful, insightful, and has given me motivation to keep trying.

It will be on your PRIA, whoever told you otherwise is misinformed, or they do not handle PRIA correctly.

they told my systems class at my regional that if we failed the written it wouldn’t be on our pria either. They didn’t say they wouldn’t fire us, but they did say nobody would know but us.

Did anybody tell you that there's no PRIA, and it's now the Pilot Records Database (PRD)?

Everything goes in the PRD, and it's a lifetime record.

that’s not necessarily true I have a failed KV from a previous 121 and nothing is in my PRD indicating that I failed anything (not a PRD/PRIA event under AQP). However, if someone failed a MV or LOE that would show up. My friend failed his LOE twice and both of those failures are in his PRD.

SV failures are normally entered into the PRD, maybe in this scenario his carrier did not report it.

What is a KV, MV, or LOE?

Yes, it's necessarily true that all your records must be in the PRD. Read the program. It's quite clear.

Rather than type it out again, you can reference previous comments: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/3398808-post4.html

SV: Systems Validation, sometimes called GV: Ground Validation

PV: Procedures Validation (checklist flows in a Matrix trainer)

MV: Maneuvers Validation

KV: Knowledge Validation (check ride oral)

LOE is your check ride in the SIM

At some airlines you’re required to have your KV and LOE same day.

At my previous airline (SkyWest), all Validation are PRIA.

Must be a regional thing and all the cool kids know the codes. Never heard of them.

Nothing is PRIA, because there is no PRIA. It ended.

As others have said, plenty of people have had problems in the past at various stages of training and the majority find employment with regionals and majors regardless, especially with the market as it is.

Don’t give up, you will absolutely be hired. Just have that story down from what you learned and how you will move past it going forward.

this has been previously discussed on the aviation career mentorship Facebook group. Here’s a copy paste of an excellent post regarding PRIA/PRD and AQP. KVs are not PRIA reportable under AQP.

“I’ve seen a lot of confusion with people and PRIA records and what is PRIA reportable.

Any checkride failure during your training will show up, but when you get to the 121 and 135 world it’s a little more confusing.

The FAA made a handy dandy chart for everyone to reference. It is divided into AQP and PC tables near the end to make it easy to read.

121 Subpart Y is AQP carriers
121 N/O are others

For AQP: MV, LOE, IOE, and Line checks are all required reports. HOWEVER your airline may send all training records along with your PRIA request (many do)

For Non-AQP: PC, OE, and Line checks. They also can send training records (and do)

Read for yourself for more understanding at the link below. If I missed something let me know!”

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...LLGjl7p9l7rdNk

Lol sounds good John. Only the “cool kids” know the codes for OE/IOE as well right? Your welcome btw. You asked and I answered. You didn’t have to throw shade.

I’m guessing you haven’t reviewed an airline app in the last few decades because it DOES NOT MATTER what record collection database they call it now. Literally ANY jeopardy event you had in your training career will be asked to be listed on your apps. They ask the same “have you ever failed/Unsat question multiple times for a reason. You mean I have list that first intermediate stage check prior to another intermediate stage check prior to a private pilot check ride when I was a student pilot? Yes, and you won’t find that anywhere except your first paper training logbook.

That all may be true, but what Airline Application doesn’t have the question, “have you ever failed any course of training during your pilot career”.

So the public won’t know about your small failure, but unless you decided to play word games in your apps and interview said airline will know. And if they don’t find out during both those steps, they’ll find out when your previous employer sends over your training records.

There's no PRIA? They repealed the Pilot Records Improvement Act?

If you try to be pedantic, at least know what you are talking about because it sounds like you don't really know what PRIA means. PRIA is still alive and well, you just now use PRD to manage your PRIA mandated requests.

You do understand that PRIA ended, don't you? Gone. Over. Finis. Kaput. Over.

PRIA is still alive. No matter how many languages you dont speak you use to claim otherwise.

PRIA requires the carrier to return all training records. It is a safe assumption it will be there. There will be omissions, but the question asked is have you failed any training events, not have you failed any PRIA reportable events.

I just wanted to quote this post to show JB's ineptitude.

Those those who asked, yes, the PRD replaces PRIA. The transition began a year ago, and will be fully complete by September 2024, and which time the applicability of PRIA will be done in entirety.

As for jeopardy vs. non-jeopardy, there's no such thing as non-jeopardy. I have represented people in termination hearings and proceedings who were let go for what most consider to be "non-jeopardy" events; a notable one was a LOFT ride. You may think that an element of your AQP or other training is "non-jeopardy," and if it helps you to be naive enough to believe that and sleep better at night, have at it. But you'll be wrong.

When that non-jeopardy event leads to a termination, or other penalty, you can bet that will be part of the database, and it doesn't go away. With PRIA, one's past became murky and buried a few years down the line. PRD, not so.

Everything is jeopardy. Treat it accordingly, and prepare accordingly.

For the OP, take a look at Fractional Operations. NetJets is good alternative to airline flying if you don't mind being gone 7 days at a time and doing some scut work like cleaning the cabin after a flight. I have a feeling NetJets is gearing up for more hiring, they just doubled the number of domiciles from 100 to over 200. You can live in the boondocks and use an airport with a bare minimum of airline service. You always start/finish at your domicile. NetJets has lowered their mins to a R-ATP.

Flexjet is another Fractional operator, they offer faster upgrade but benefits are far below NetJets. And someone already mentioned Fly Exclusive, they are growing fast and from what I've heard from an acquaintance who works there they treat their people very well.

So would you like to rephrase this, I'll let you choose the language.

"Nothing is PRIA, because there is no PRIA. It ended."

FYI: PRIA is still alive. The criteria has not changed. You need to do more homework about this.