How The [ATP] Rule Reduces Safety
 

Big claim from somebody who isn't a licensed pilot and has never been though a 121 training program.

Lol, the regionals aren't even hiring FOs anyways.

Don’t engage

Ugh. Another "1500 hour rule" critic. At least he could have called it out correctly. It's an ATP reg, specifically 121.436.

Well, that's just his (uninformed) opinion, man.

The non-pilot author should realize (and would if he had bothered to talk to any pilots) that a great deal of learning takes place during that 1,500 hours. Both from teaching and watching mistakes. Experience is the greatest instructor.

Weird how insurance rates decrease with hours. <-- free market at work, SonicFlyer.

But then again, he is "frequent traveler"-certified.

One way it has made us less safe is that the regionals have essentially hired anyone with a pulse over the last few years.

They might be hiring anyone with a pulse, but if you don't meet the standard you won't continue to be employed.

A long time ago, You flew as an FE and got a few years to see how the operation was run and how the plane was flown. Pretty good seat to see whats going on. Hard to say whats enough experience. If a person can fly the sim and meet the ATP requirements, but not the hours, is the 1,500hrs really a valid indication of ability?

There is not 1,500 hours requirement. The requirement isn't about hours, it's about holding an ATP certificate. An airline pilot, holding an airline pilot certificate. Novel idea.

1,500 hours is only one of the experience criteria for the ATP; it has never been a question of whether 1,500 hours is "enough," but of certification, and meeting a minimum certification standard.

For many years, a commercial pilot certificate was considered adequate, and there have been periods when airline pilots have been hired at the bare minimum value for the commercial certificate.

The commercial, however, does not require that an applicant perform to the same standard as the ATP.

A type rating does conform to the same standard as the ATP. Whereas in the past, new airline pilots were not necessarily type rated right away, and later the advent of the idiotic "SIC type" became chic for ICAO compliance, and the withholding of a "full ATP type" held some control by the employer over the employee (giving the employee a thing of value), today pilots train to the full type, to ATP standards, and they're expected to perform at that standard. The only pilot certificate that meets that standard, or requires it, is the ATP.

Way too many seem to latch on this foolish theory that somehow scrapping the ATP requirement, would lead to better more capable applicants early on. As if to suggest that there are countless of these 250 Hr Hotshots, who quit and go into Medicine, Tech or Finance right after their commercial check ride.......and its only the WEAK WHO SURVIVE and make it to 1500, and all the while diminishing their craft the more hours they get. WHAT NONSENSE!

I mean wasn't the old system so fair, just and meritocratic.........we all know Pre ATP requirement to best chance get to the regionals you needed at least one of the following hopefully all three: 1. Dad/Family at legacy. 2.Money to buy additional "Multi time" to be more competitive 3. No Family to support so you could afford to take a job that paid 18.50 per hour.....I mean WHY NOT BRO.

Neither one of those things involves Airmanship, Knowledge or Aeronautical decision making.
The ATP requirement was the most meritocratic thing introduced to an industry where it usually is lacking. For community college guys like myself, now we either have 1500 or we don't, and if we don't the ways to get it are very transparent and accessible. It doesn't matter what race you are, who your Father is, what your credit rating is.....you either HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T.

keep putting those apps in. That phone call will happen one day, little buddy.

Doublespeak. If the requirement isn't about hours, then why is there an hour requirement, for most pilots at 1500? :rolleyes:

There also is a requirement to be of good moral character. A few clicks through this great website would suggest there are many fraudulent ATP certificates out there.

14 CFR 121.436(a)(1) establishes a requirement for the PIC and SIC to hold an airline transport pilot certificate. Nowhere in the regulation is a stipulation found that requires 1,500 hours to serve as SIC under Part 121. Only that the SIC hold an ATP pilot certificate that is not subject to the limitations of 14 CFR 61.167.

In turn, 14 CFR 61.167(b) stipulates that the holder of an ATP certificate who has not met the age or experience requirements of 61.153(a)(1) and 61.159 bears certain limitations regarding acting as PIC, and in acting as SIC in certain crew compliments.

Nowhere in Part 121 is a stipulation found dictating that the SIC must hold 1,500 hours. Only an ATP. The experience requirements for the ATP have various levels, depending on the means used to meet the regulation. 1,500 hours is mitigated by various other experience and qualification, and is not a hard and fast number. The requirement of 1,500 hours for the ATP has been around a very long time, and well predates Colgan.

The means of understanding the regulation are threefold: first is the preamble to the federal register in which the final rule was announced; second is the FAA Chief Counsel legal interpretation of the regulation, and last is the regulation itself. One who wishes to understand the reasoning of the more recent changes to the ATP experience requirements, including provisions for military pilots and other means of meeting the ATP experience requirements, would do well to read the Federal Register preambles before pontificating about that which (s)he does not understand.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...ools-and-other

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...ier-operations

Additionally, the change to Part 121 itself, establishing the requirement for the ATP for SIC's operating under that part, also has a preamble with legal explanation of the rationale for the regulation. Read it:

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...ical-amendment

Nowhere in that preamble is a requirement established for a SIC in Part 121 operations to have 1,500 hours. The requirement for the SIC to hold an ATP certificate IS established, however, along with all the rationale for the change, and the rationale establishing that a PIC must have 1,000 hours in air transport service.

If one continues to beat one's empty noggin on the stairs and insist that it's a 1,500 hour rule, it's a clarion call that directs all present to look to the stupid person, banging his head on the steps. Clue in, brightspark. Banging your head or parroting the same, tired lies and misinformation, won't make you any smarter.

It’s not double speak. The FAA believes that going through a structured training program, either military or college, will provide the same knowledge base and experience at a lower total time than just cruising around for 1500 hours. It’s up to the person to figure out which path to the ATP they want to take.

Yes. The rule is that you must have an ATP to be an Air Transport Pilot. It's not a "1500 hour rule", and you don't always need 1500 hours to hold an ATP.

If you think airline pilots shouldn't have an ATP, then come out and say so.

Too bad the idiot who wrote that article doesn’t know what the fark he’s talking about.

this is nonsensical

personally believe there’s needs to be some adjustments to those programs. There’s plenty of 141 hot shots who think they know everything yet can’t manage to go into a new airport on their own because their program kept them in a bubble. The “knowledge” they gain from a degree in aviation isn’t any more valuable than the skills a person learns by getting any other degree. The ability to learn, study, research etc. Military is a topic I won’t touch but I don’t think military experience tops any other experience to justify cutting that time in half. Point is there’s people who come to the 121 world with an ratp that really struggle, despite having had those structured programs and there’s ones that do very well. Just like any other regular 1500hr cfi. There’s no evidence that the structured programs really do much to strengthen a candidates chance of success in 121.

i could get behind 1 ratp level at 1 set of hours if you meet various other qualification or experience requirements. I think having any degree is just as equivalent to having a degree in aviation.

a Beautician requires 1500 hours of school before being licensed, and a barber the same unless taught to cut hair in the military. I think their requirements then are 850 hours of school, So the Barber has a restricted Beautician license I guess. No need for those time requirements operating airplanes.

Just plane stupid logic. I have heard the old joke, a FA asked how long pilot training is. “So for a few more weeks of classes, I could have been a pilot.” Right……

A retort to the op:

https://liveandletsfly.com/pilot-1500-hour-rule/

Written by an anti-union hack. His disdain for ALPA and pilots is undeniable.

Look at what A&P's have to do...

Would rather hire somebody without a pulse at 1500 hours instead of somebody without a pulse at 250 hours.

Drink heavily and find catchy stickers to cover the rust spot on our tool roll-aways?

For years I've worked in the sim with 1500 hr ATP's who couldn't fly a plane to save their lives, and 1001 hour restricted ATP's who were prodigies...and vice versa. I don't think its the number of hours but the type. A qualified 141 flight school churns out both winners and losers and it seems to just be random and based on the kid's aptitude themselves. I really think that they only way the ATP hours should be reduced is if they are flying in a crew within the system. Maybe a charter ops and make the restricted ATP 750-1000 hrs. Flying around the pattern in a 152 for 1500hrs hasn't helped anyone I've worked with become a better airline pilot. Just MHO

Only if they have PIC time. SIC in charter ops means nothing.

Why bother to log it, then?

Does 121 SIC mean nothing, too?

Well 1000 SIC in 121 means upgradeable to captain, what does 1000 SIC in charter get you?

A job. A thousand hours. Experience.

Perhaps you simply think that the pinnacle of life is to be a 121 captain.

Has the 135 SIC been paid? Then (s)he got paid, perhaps benefits, perhaps exposure. Perhaps greater total experience or time that leads to a particular job.

At this moment in time, it may be that a little self-entitled curtain climber can fall into a 121 cockpit with nothing but hope and bare ATP qualifications, but this has not always been the case, and it will not always be the case. Perhaps you lack the experience, or perhaps you've been in the industry for too short a time to know this.

1,000 hours of time, PIC or SIC, may be recognized by insurance, or an employer. It may be the road to the PIC job in the 135 operation. It may be a lot of things. It's still a thousand hours.

You fell right into his trap, he was spring loaded. Part 135 SIC is the holy grail for him.

That really depends on your perspective, I guess.

From my perspective, with a lot of hours as a 135 SIC, 121 SIC, and a number of years as a 121 widebody captain, I don't particularly see 135 SIC as a bad thing. From your experience, junior, how do you see it?

A pilot who has logged 1500 hours of light SE and ME and completed the standard ATP and comes to train to fly a jet is starting something totally new to them. Some do well and many struggle. The 1500 hours they needed to get the ATP in most cases did nothing to qualify them for the training and job they are about to undertake. If those same pilots were to fly in a 135 crew environment from 250 hours as they are allowed to do with just a commercial, they would arrive to 121 training with the experience doing the very thing that they will be trained on. IMHO that actually enhances safety. A just trained 1500 hour ATP let loose on the world of 121 with nothing more than GA time will see a lot of firsts with those 121 passengers on board.

If the ATP rule were to be changed and its a big IF, I'd say it matters more the type of hours. I wouldn't be worried about reducing the requirements for a restricted ATP to even 750 hours if those hours were achieved in a way that gives the pilot real world experience. 500 hours of jet SIC beats 1500 hours of GA flying any day IMO. I think that would enhance, not degrade safety. Again just one guy's opinion who's been working to train these pilots for a long time.

Yep, it's an entirely different kind of flying, all together.

The airline transport pilot certification requirements do not stipulate that hours flown must "qualify" an individual for a job, or for any future training which the individual must undertake. This is not a requirement of an pilot certificate.

One who obtains a commercial pilot certificate and then seeks to be an aerial applicator has not been prepared to crop dust; one has obtained commercial certification: one has achieved the minimum pilot certification with a privilege to fly for compensation or hire. One could go any direction from there, whether it's crop dusting, towing banners, flying charter, or any number of other things. Hours flown to get to the minimum requirement to apply for and obtain commercial certification are not in any way required to be oriented to a given job. They are FAA-mandated requirements for pilot certification.

The ATP pilot certificate has FAA-mandated requirements that must be met in order to obtain that level of certification. There are multiple methods of satisfying the experience requirements. A total time of 1,500 hours is only one of those paths. The ATP may be obtained with less. The ATP pilot may be working for an airline, or doing any number of other things: the FAA does not make assumptions as to the. path the holder of the ATP will take, but merely sets the requirements for obtaining the ATP certification. This includes total experience, specifics regarding night, cross country, instruction received, etc...just like any other pilot certificate. The FAA also sets the same performance standards for the ATP as for a type rating.

The FAA, as mandated by congress, has established that all 121 airline pilos, whether PIC or SIC, will hold an ATP certificate.

Imagine. an airline pilot holding an airline pilot certificate. Go figure.