Bored
 

So.... I have been doing the regional FO gear slinger thing for coming up on one year now. I am in my 30's, so I have had a life before aviation. I have been persuing ”The Dream" for the last 6 years. I had a bumpy road getting to where I am now. I like my job for the most part. My problem is I feel like my life is all about waiting now. I am waiting to get off reserve, waiting for 2nd year pay, waiting for upgrade, waiting for the Legacy carriers to call ect. ect.
Prior to aviation I ran my own small business. Every day I thought of things I could do to advance my business. I was free to act on my ideas and suffer the consequences if I failed or reap the bennies is I succeeded. These days I can only wait for my seniority number to go up. I can study all I want and do everything I can to be the best pilot I can be, however I won't receive a penny for it til the next year of my service begins or til enough people move on ahead of me and I can upgrade.
I am not whining about my job. Again, I do enjoy what I do. I feel as though I am wasting away waiting for the next big thing to happen and feel I have nothing to say about it.
I want to start another business and take back control of my life again. I can't wait until I save up some money so I can get out of this business. It isn't what I thought it would be. I know I can't live like this for another 30 years.
Anybody else feel this way?

Some folks manage to do both.

But, no...you aren't alone. For some, when coming to the airline pilot profession from a different occupation, finding satisfaction is more difficult than imagined. The airline business isn't a meritocracy, and some miss that environment. I know I did when I retired from the military and was hired by a major as a flight engineer.

It wasn't a status thing...it was the understanding that how well one does has practically no impact on one's career.

You can improve things, however. If your company does its own instruction, you can consider being a ground or sim instructor and still fly the line. Or you might look into union work as a way of bringing a little extra to the job.

But ultimately, you will have to reconcile yourself to the fact that the only way you move up is if someone else moves out.

Waiting to move up
 

There are many downside factors in the airline profession today, but the seniority system is not one of them. Without it, hungrier or better-connected pilots might leapfrog you, making your gear-pulling days permanent. Please read "Flying the Line", by George Hopkins.

What did you think it wold be. This is what a seniority system is.

Flying the line
 

Guys I have a serious question I would like answered but this isn't a flame fest so please don't start with me.

My brother-in-law belongs to a union. If he for some reason loses his job, he can simply go to the union hall, and if there is a need, go to the next job site and retain his pay and seniority number.

So my question is why do the airline unions work differently?

If the answer is in Flying the Line Part 1 or 2 I apologize. I haven't had time to read them yet.

I'm just curious since I'm new to all of this.

The Chow

Because there is no national seniority list...nor will there likely ever be. Too many stand to get screwed for the benefit of too few, not to mention the number of non-ALPA carriers that would likely not conform.

I would suggest Flying the Line 1 & 2, as well as Hard Landing. It'll answer most of the questions you have about "how it works".

Thanks Boiler.

My pleasure!
:D

AV8ER
I guess you don't have much feedback to offer. I didn't post this to start some sort of pi$$ing match. By the way, I have read Flying the Line. I presume most pilots have a type A personality. I was curious how many people in this profession no longer felt like sitting around and waiting for good things to happen. I personally feel the need to be proactive towards my goals. I have a feeling there are many of you that feel the same way.
My problem is bigger than just the seniority system which a couple of you have chosen to focus on. The overall decisions of where this industry is going as far as pay, quality of service (example Jet Airways service vs. Southwest) mergers government intervention (TSA & DHS) ect. We are pretty much at the mercy of management the government, and our fellow aviators when it comes to our future. To clarify the comment on fellow aviators I meant as far as what wages people will work for.
Again I enjoy my job but I can't bear the idea of being out of control of my own destiny any longer.

Yes and no.

I felt like I was waiting like you do but I never, ever, not in a million years considered getting out of the industry.

I can understand how you feel because I went through the waiting and now I am watching my fiancee "wait". For me, it has been worth it so far. I finally got to where I am going to stay at and I finally feel like I can enjoy my life without waiting for the next thing (of course I don't take things for granted, I know I can lose my job). I never really thought about being a pilot the way you do. What I mean by that is that your life is out of your control. I'll probably have a few panic attacks in the next few weeks pondering that one (I'm not being sarcastic either). :) Good luck in whatever you end up doing. It's not worth going through life not completely happy.

JJ.

first off, you're not JUST waiting, you're learning. Since you posted that you are in your 30's and have owned a business, you should realize that. I learn something ever time I go fly and I'm on my 18th year as a pilot. I've forgotten all that private pilot/CFI stuff, but I do know what makes an airline run on time, how to serve my passengers, how to get the most out of my crew.

The challenge is not "get called by a legacy" but rather to earn the right to be a captain, gain the experience and finally make the decision if staying where you're at or going to a legacy is right for you. By then you will earned the right to sit at that XYZ interview. I absolutely guarantee their are many things to challenge your intellect, and it has little to do with how "well you fly"

Start thinking like a Captain, learn your FOM (or Op Spec), know what you're doing and why. If all these things still don't do it for you, and it's possible it won't, then you should consider going back to an enviroment that let's your aggressive and creative side flurish.

Stick

He wouldn't happen to be an Emb-120 captain out of FAT would he?

Your attitude is very common. I know a few young slackers who just play video games on their days off, but I know many, many pilots who have a variety of outside interests, activities, jobs, and busineses.

I considered everything you mentioned when I changed careers. The kicker for me was flexibility...if I have an outside job that becomes less-than-enjoyable I'm not stuck there just to pay the bills. Once you get off reserve you should have enough time off to pursue something else on the side. These are examples of pilot off-duty activities..they all share one common trait, they can be done with flexible hours or even from a laptop on the road:

Military reserve
Real estate
Slum Lord
Buy Homes and fix them up for resale
Small Retail Business Owner
Computer Support for Small Busineses
Contract Computer Programmer
Restore Old cars
Tile, cabinet installation, etc
Writer
Various Artistic Things
DJ
Musician
Install/Setup complex home intertainment systems
Install home internet systems
Light Commercial Diving (clean / repair small boats)
Teacher/Instructor (endless list of possibilities)
Teach Ground Schools at the local FBO/school
Etc,etc

Each of those examples represent someone I know. I didn't list day-trader because everybody I know who tried that lost their @ss.

Most of these jobs can also be scaled up to support you if you get furloughed.

You could also do volunteer work.

Yes........

if its the same person i'm thinking about then tell him not to forget to fill out my eval! :)

This is the only problem I have with aviation and why I probably won't ever go work for the airlines. Your whole career is based on a senority number. Unlike some jobs, were the most productive and hard working will get promotions, pilots are at the mercy of a senority number. You just have to sit and wait and hope that someones leaves or retires so that you can move up. Everyone is on the same playing field so it doesn't really matter if your a better employee or not. Now that airline pay and quality of life is in the dumpster it makes it harder for pilots to wait around for that next year pay. Maybe you would have been better off just pursuing general aviation.

damn i feel your pain.

Does he have full lips and a sweet looking a$$? :D

If so, it's him and I'll tell him tonight!

I can understand what you are saying but my problem with that is that all the a$$kissers would get promoted before me. :p

And of course the problem of the chief pilot's buddies would be annoying as well.

Your brother-in-law has that protection because those job sites are within his union's local branch. If he went to another city, with another local, he'd likely loose that right because they have a different CBA and different seniority list (sound familiar?).

My old man is in the machinist union. If his employer were to cut his position he could bump somebody based on lower seniortiy but this wouldn't apply to say, Boeing as well. Even though they're all machinists, and in the same city, they belong to different locals and have different CBAs.

There is nothing preventing you from starting another business. My clients had to go through an average of three businesses each before they found the one that made 'em millions.

Ugh, Talk about a complicated union/seniority system. A lot of my family is either involved now or at one time was involved with Boeing. Every time a layoff or strike rolls around I get to hear all about how it works and I still haven't the foggiest idea of what the hell is going on over there (Especially with the Spirit Aerosystems buyout and such).

I was just stating that thats the way it was, it is, and it will be. If you need another challenge, or feel the need to be proactive towards your goals, you have to look elswhere, as others have said.

quit......

Why cant you get your man a job at UPS?

Here is my 2 pennies worth. I flew/and will fly because I loved it since I was 10... ( 44 now ).... 6 years flying the HERC in the AF.... then nearly another 3 for AE..... left aviation due to my wife being diagnosed with cancer and i needed to be around to help care for my then 4 year old daughter. Could have probably gone back 3 years after that but didnt... tooo comfortable etc..... but EVERY day that went by i knew I had made a mistake. NOW... 13 years later... and probably way behind the curve... I am going to make another run at this crazy bizness...... I was asked 10,000 times if I was asked once...do you miss it..... I always said no.... but i knew deep down I was lying to myself and my family. Losing my home 2 years ago due to a natural disaster woke me up....life is short... do what makes you happy... the rest can be worked out....so i rebuilt my home.... and now I am gonna rebuild what I was meant to do....

If you love it...really love it.. you will find a way....if you dont.... even the money of a mainline career wont make you happy..... either way do what will make you happy for the rest of your life... .. you dont want to be that OLD bastard captain who the FO's hate because YOU hate your job and take it out on them.... just my opinion.....flame away.

GO FOR IT.

Best of luck! :cool:

I second that! I think if you truly love something and can take the good with the bad you will become successful. Of course success has a different meaning to everyone but I'm sure that you willl find what makes you happy whether its flying or not.

I am not that important. I'm just a number. Besides, he is a white male, so he needs 20,000 hours to get hired. It will take at least another 20 years for him to get that kind of time.

haha wow thats crazy, I thought for sure if you had a family member working there, especially a spouse you were a shoe in, oh well. I would have a hard time if my wife was with a better airline than me, good for you guys.

PS My G/F probably my wife in a yera or two will probably always make more money than me so I guess its the same thing, I think its sexy when the women makes more :)

The seniority system is not always ideal, but it is the only system that has any chance of being fair.

The problem with a performance-based system is that there are VERY few things a line pilot does which can be measured objectively. About the only possible criteria are:

1) Did you pass your PC? Did you do well?
2) Did you crash any airplanes.
3) On-time performance.

Pass/fail on a PC is somewhat subjective, and trying to grade your PC performance qualititively would be very subjective (ie not fair).

Crashes doesn't happen very often, so that's not a useful measure either (but it is pretty objective ;) )

On-time performance is very bad measure because in addition to identifying pilots who work hard and make an extra effort, it will also reward those willing and eager to commit frequent safety violations :eek:

Without objective measures all the butt-kissers and relatives of management get their pick of schedules, domiciles, equipment, upgrades, vacation...while everybody else gets hosed. There a several books about the early days of aviation which clearly document this phenomenon. This is one of those times when you need to learn from the past...

Look on the bright side...at least the seniority system ensures that some marginal pilot who's friends with management doesn't jump seniority and get YOUR upgrade.

At UPS, if you have a family member working there (whether they throw boxes in Bufu or are a pilot), they won't hire you. You cannot have any family there to be hired. Ironic since the company was founded by two brothers :confused: The only way you are a shoe in is if you are a chick remember? ;)

Kind of like office politics these days. No thanks!

Neither a seniority or a merit based system would or is totally fair. I have worked in both and see the advantages of both. I will say that it took awhile when I first went to a seniority based system to get use to the idea that how well i did my job had virtually NO impact on where I could be based or what aircraft I could fly. I understand it, and you have to work that situation, but at the end of the day, it is what you make of it. I could envision much worse systems than seniority based.

Oh Yes
 

I hope you were just joking. 20,000 hours? And people say that I am crazy.

SkyHigh

The cubicle life
 

People often claim aviation over the "cubicle" however to me the airlines are virtually the same.

Both are known to be boring and void of hope.

Both take most of a lifetime to get anywhere.

Both see the employee as just a number.

Both require adaptation to the corporate culture.

Both have a long string of bosses, SOP's and uniforms to deal with.

Both are free from personal expression and creativity.


The seniority system keeps every ones head in the yoke and motivated to do as little as necessary to get to the next line check.

SkyHigh

So skyhigh do you suggest we stay away from being employees. Not everyone can own their own Business.

I was being sarcastic.

Interesting thread:D

Let's bend the talk in a different direction. There are many jobs in aviation flying planes. Maybe it's the RJ FO thing? Think Charter, crop dusting, Corporate or fractional. Not everybody is cut out or satisfied flying the same old thing. Maybe it's just time to hang up the aviation dream for a new one.

Years ago an aviation dealer told me that if I liked general aviation, I was in the wrong business. He told me the people buying the nice planes weren't airline pilots, but doctors, lawers, and business owners.

The sad thing is asking how many airline captains truely like flying, or are they in it for the bucks. It's a common problem I've seem among my military trained collegues. The one thing to give the civilian trained (and to be honest, I'm speaking of those who have been though a airline BK or two) pilots is that we are doing it because we like it. I hold nothing against my friends that have left the industry. The interesting thing to keep in mind is that most miss it dearly after they leave. I can relate to Sky High.

In closing, burn out can happen to anyone. Aviation is a fickel. Do the best you can for you and yours. Jonnyjetprop out;)

Sorry
 

It is difficult to tell since I am sure that UPS has turned down guys with huge flight times.

SkyHigh