Indeed, plus the airlines don't have the "LUXURY" of trying to land a fully loaded airframe at night, under NVG's, in the desert in a total brown out situation with your FE talking you onto target. Believe me, I would rather take the worst line or reserve duty out there than have my airframe shot at by small arms and RPG's.

When was the last time a RJ got shot at and limped home barely above Single engine safe speed? Oh that's right...IT DIDN'T.

We earn every tiny *******ING dollar that is paid to us. The fact that most of us make it to 20 years is a blessing.

I would galdly trade every "dime" that i saved on deployment to have a warm bed with running water and bathroom like the piece of Sh!t Ramada's that I have heard complained about rather than the fart sack, chem suit for a pillow and cold muddh showers that got to use twice a week at the LUXURIOUS Forward operating base that I had the pleasure of being stationed at.

Come see what conditions are like for the military on a deployment for ONE DAY, then see which you would rather have.

Skyhigh, I respect your opinion and wisdom, but on this case, Sir, I think you have your wires crossed.

Honestly though
 

Companies would have to pay a massive amount more than they do to cause much change and why would they do that?

Even now pilots earn half of what they did 20 years ago and still they come. I think management is smart. They know that all they have to do is to keep lowering the bar slowly and pilots will still come running.

The down side is that occasionally they will face shortages but all they have to do is reduce the minimums and a new wave will surge in. It is our own fault.

SkyHigh

Military
 

I am sure that it is a sacrifice however there are several people on this forum who came to the military with nothing and had all their college, grad school and most every other expense in life paid for. Not bad.

SkyHigh

Considering the time that we are required to put in...and the time it takes us to complete college (7 years BTW due to deployments and duty restrictions), I would say that it is a fair trade.

I don't know what military you were in, but nothing was EVER given to me.

Airlines
 

I wasn't in the military. I am sure that what you have gone through wasn't a walk in the park but you have received a whole lot for your service and perhaps it is difficult to understand the value in that.

There are people on this forum who will be paying for training and education for 20 years. If your intentions are to fly for the airlines then you are in for a shock.

SkyHigh

I'm not sure that pay for highly educated people is dropping, but I do agree with skyhigh about pay in specialized trades going up.

With all of the education and time that pilots put in the starting pay at regionals should be up their with other professionals in engineering and medical fields. The say accounting degrees are in demand and can earn about 50,000 to start out.

We'd all like to see pay go up, and time away from base go down, but if you think about it differently, better pay, better work rules, and more time at home, might increase the problem slightly too.

Pay will give retention (but we don't really wanna be retained...that bad) however it would be nicer to make more before going onto the next job (as that is the objective of most of us in this industry...move up)

Better work rules keep us happy, but most aspiring airline pilots have no clue as to what the work rules are...in college i knew two things "don't go to mesa, don't go to gojet" that's about it...the rest was a crapshoot, wasn't really sure about what schedules were like, bid periods, pref bidding, block or better, duty rigs, trip rigs, etc....And i don't see "regional" contract 101 being offered in the universities anytime soon.

And the more time the airlines give us at home, the more pilots they'll need to cover the flights. We all know we're "overworked" as it is, and heck, at my company the majority of FO's are sitting with 14 days off a month. If you're able to give your pilots half a month off, allow them to fly less hours, and pay them more, management is going to have to get tons more butts in the seats to cover what the other pilots have "given up"

Another thought. I wonder if the problem can actually fix itself quickly, regionals are having a tough time with staffing, flight schools are seeing less pilot candidates enter their doors, flight instructors are disappearing, and many at the university level aren't getting their CFI rating because it's "not required" anymore, or at minimum not a necessity...If the regionals lower the mins further, that'll help some, but hurt the bottom line, which is they'll continue to need more pilots, and the further the minimums go, the less pilots they'll have to pool from. Where's it end?

5 year "captains" at the Golden Gate Transit Authority gross $100,000 a year - driving a GM bus. Some do have a longish day, 9-11 hours - but with several hours off in the middle of the day (go to the gym, lunch & what not). They also have a real retirement.

I did the regional thing in the early-mid 80's. The pay then, corrected for inflation was considerably higher than it is now. (The mins to get in were higher too, in fact FO mins then were higher than captains mins now) So, just because there's a "shortage" now tell me how is it a good time to get in? BTW: I'm one of the people on the Skyhigh's "sidelines", trying to get back in but without starving, or being insulted or treated like trash at interviews, or generally ignored because of experience. I honestly believe that a senior captain at a regional isn't a bad thing at all, provided its where you want to live, and maybe don't have children to raise. But I think only 20-25% of people will make it out of the regionals onto a main-line/legacy gig. High risks indeed.

Maybe the other 75-80% don't want it as bad as the next guy. If you want something and you work hard for it, by golly you'll get it. I've gotten everything I've wanted through hard work and perserverance. My goal is to be at AAL within 6 years, based in MIA. If AAL is hiring at that time, I'll be there and I will get the job. Whatever it takes, I'll get the job.

Two things with the military to civilian route: 1) Ususally, you pay your dues, twice. 2) Senioirity is everything.

Both have mgt issues. Both have QOL of issues (granted, one more severe than the other). Both can have you paired with a pilot in the other seat who out ranks you, but is much younger.

47, did the army ever get around to paying crews the full ACIP? Oh yea, both try and get crews on the cheap.:cool:

Try Harder
 

It is false to think that if you "try harder" that it will make that much of a difference. That logic works in school, sports and maybe with getting girls however when it comes to the major airlines the outcome is almost totally out of your control.

Most of what makes a difference in pilot career advancement comes from the decisions of other people and events that have nothing to do with you or your efforts. Upgrade, furlough and hiring trends are three of the biggest factors. Lets not forget medical issues, FAA actions, previous employers and terrorist attacks. Any of these things can sneak up behind you and snuff your dreams.

Right now someplace in America there is a 23 year old kid who is upgrading in the RJ as a captain. If that isn't you then you are already at a competitive disadvantage. I am not saying that you shouldn't try just that it is false to think that your efforts alone will have the largest effect on the outcome of your career.

Heck in 5 years there might not even be an AAL in existence anymore.

SKyHigh

Thanks, Dad. I still paid for all my flight licenses and have 38k in loans to repay. So, before you go off and say that I was handed everything I have to my credit, trade places with me.

Since you were never in the military, let me shed some light on the college tuition thing for you. First, it isn't like there is an endless pot of money that is available for one to go to school on. We are capped per fiscal on how much we have available. When i left, it was about 4800, about the size of most students grant for a year of college. The schools on base know EXACTLY how much you are getting and adjust their rates accordingly. And, guess what, if you come up short on tuition assistance, YOU have to pay the difference. Some choose a program called Top-Up where they allow soliders to use their Gi bill to cover the difference, but, if there is excess, guess who gets it...that's right THE SCHOOL. It isn't free, it isn't easy.

Further more, the life of a military pilot is anything but Top Gun glamorous. We spend WAY more time away from home, have duties that do not even involve flying that will take up most of our time, and, if you figure the difference in pay, make less per hour than your average second year FO.

Hell, if I decide to, heading to the airlines would be a break from the grind I have been enduring for the past ten years. However, I do understand that I will have to make the difference up somehow. Which is why I am paying OUT OF POCKET for my M.S., so I can teach college on-line while I am either at the hotel or sitting in the crew lounge on reserve.

Thanks for your support of the troops. Put another yellow magnet on your trunk for me.

I am assuming that you are talking about the retention bonus for aviators (?), in that Yes Sir, they did but only if you are in a certain airframe which, right now I think is 64D's and Mh-47's. The rest of us, according to the Army can stay or go...no hair off their sack. However, that is the problem that we are having, retaining the mid-career experienced flyers who teach us young ones everything they can and then some. We are not hurting for new pilots by any means, and I know of at least one airframe (the -60's) that are at about 400% strength right now. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next 8 years when their obligation is up and they have logged neary 1k hours due to overmanning. That is why I chose to drive the Hooker....less people.

I like you Skyhigh, but I'm not swayed either way by the above. I believe that if you want something bad enough, you work earnestly to get it and most of all you believe you will get it, things will fall into place. There's no indication that AAL is going out of business so I'm confident that things will be just fine. :)

not comparing the skill sets, just stating the similarities in training. Although pilots and doctors are different, its the same kind of system in that a large investment is required upfront, followed by a period of paying your dues in order to get the "dream job."

This is a great comparison, Kilo! Doctors/NP's and Pilots share very similar hardships in the profession.

I watched my mom sacrifice years of her life to get where she is as an FNP; working all nighters, in the ER, volunteering, medical politics, research, kissing ass, laid off, dealing with lunatics and not to mention the expenses of getting there. Same goes for my pops with the airlines; years of sacrifice, expenses, paycuts, union crap and getting pushed into the dirt only to get up and have it happen all over again. Doctors/NP's and Pilots make a decent financial living but at a great sacrifice. The nature of the professions is completely opposite but both must go through years of hardship to get to the "dream job."

Exactly! Hard work still pays off, and although I am not in the airline biz yet, I have at least 10 friends flying for various regionals. All of them love their jobs, and I think it is important to remember that all of the griping that goes on around here shouldn't trump the fact that flying airplanes is still a great job, if you are willing to work for it!

It is a great job! I couldn't fathom doing anything else....Well, maybe being a sailboat captain in the caribbean. :D But it is worth fighting for and it's up to the next generation of pilots to make decisions and take actions that are good for all pilots and the industry as a whole.

Not trying to sound rude in the least but I can't imagine why someone would get in at an older age. Getting in at a younger one is barely reasonable. I've met a few older guys and most already had good savings and what not. They left higher paying jobs because they wanted to fly. At least they had a cushion to sit on while getting peanuts from the regional.

You're right. Doctors only have 1 person's life in their hands at a time, whereas we have 50+.

We should be making more than what doctors make, not less.

But the persons' life you have in your hands is not split open on an operating table. Some ER doctors have several critical patients thaey have to deal with at one time. Doctors get paid to save lives, not transport them. You're not staring into a patients eyes, watching them spit up blood or with a punctured lung and a rib protruding through their chest, wondering if you're going to be able to keep them alive with the knoledge and skills you spent the last 15 - 20 years cultivating. I'd say doctors are paid accordingly for what they do considering the pain they go through when losing a patient, putting their own health at risk and the financial sacrifices they made in Med School (which can add up to be well into the 6 figure loans!).

But I still think pilots are underpaid, however.

My agreement with the doctor/pilot comparison is in hardships to get to your ultimate destination within the profession. The skills are two different things but again, similar hardships and sacrifices are made to get there.

Actually, many pilots at majors make more than Doctors. Doctors may gross more money, but when you subtract overhead, staff, malpractice insurance, and student loans, many doctors are faced with a sub-six figure income. Just as we have a pilot shortage, the medical profession is seeing a shortage for many of the same reasons.

Then you have the case where retired airline pilots are actually teaching CRM in hospitals, since some of what we do actually does compare to the medical profession. http://www.prwebdirect.com/releases/...rweb430209.php

This is very true for doctors with their own practice but it's also subjected to location. Dr. Joe Dirt in South Carolina may have his own practice and makes $150,000 after expenses/taxes facotred in. Dr. Hollywood in LA might do the same thing but gets more business than Dr. Dirt in SC because he's simply in a bigger city. Whatever the point to all that was!?!?!

There is a huge shortage of nurses especially! Doctors as well. But you know what? They are trying to solve the problem by increasing pay and improving QOL/benefits at hospitals and private practices. And it's working, they're getting more nurses and docs, but ever so slowly because they don't want to lower their standards and minimum qualifications.

That link you posted is interesting!

Very true. I was trying to inject a wee little bit of humor into an otherwise serious topic. I failed.

Ehhhh.....My bad? :o

Not at all, I could have phrased the humor better. I'll refrain from editing as I'm low on brain-power right now.

I'm feeling the fuel starvation myself. Time to go hunting and gathering.

ChinookDriver47,

I just wanted to say thanks for you service. It is appreciated, deeply.

I am a little older than most here, I think. I have chosen not to serve, in the military, although I have been very close to joining, a few times in my life. I took to heart things I heard from guys like yourself, and weighed the pros and cons. Ultimately, I looked at it like any other job, what are the risks/benefits/payoffs. I whole heartedly agree, that no one in a combat zone is being adequtely compensated (is there such a thing?)

Sometimes, I feel guilty for not having done my part for my country, but then agian, many, many, people before me, paid the ulimate price, so that I might live in a country where I have the choice. If my country calls me, I will be there. In the meantime, I am bit**ing and moaning about how tough I have it, like the rest of the civilians, here. But I know that we are comparing apples to watermelons.

I think many here forget what our troops are going through, because the media would rather talk about which celeb is in rehab this week, than about combat deaths. (stories, not just numbers) No one knows how to report actual news anymore. I think it is slowly killing our society.

Thanks again, and stay safe.

right on sir!! Thank you Chinook for your service, you are a true American

There is lots of truth, here. However, it starts, even before you make it to the Regionals. The true front line right now, if anyone chooses to fight, is the CFIs. Without them, the whole thing burns down. I am hopefull that for the first time in recent history, people will start to realize this. After all, who is going to train all of these 250hr "wonderkidz".

I chose not to take a "short cut", and have built 1500 hours as a CFI in the last two years. I refused to work for Mesa, BlowJets, or TSA. (No I'm not an idiot, but there were some false promises made by my employer about opportunities for multi-time, and I got a few false sarts)

Two years ago, I waited to get on with the local FBO, as they paid $20 hr, when the local "pilot factories" paid about $10/hr. I refused to work for that Sh**t.

I left the local FBO, when they started making us pay for our own health insurance. In a polite way (yes, I'll still get a good reference), I said F**ck you, if this is the value you think I add to the company.

I then went to work, localy, for a UK based "Airline School", training for JAA licenses, starting at $30K/yr with benefits, bonuses and regular raises.

When I left that job (today was my last day), to go to ExpressJet, the starting pay was just increased to $40K/yr, and productivity bonuses increased significantly, up to about $8K/yr. They have lost 4 instructors, in 3 weeks, and are desparate for new ones.

I used to feel like an idiot, climbing out of a Warrior, wearing eppulates. When I realized that, if I stayed, I would make 2.5 times what I will make as a 1st year FO on the ERJ, and that I was wearing a company provided uniform, vs paying $750.00 for it at XJT, I thought maybe I should wear them into the grocery store, on the way home.

Realizing that very few of us, here, want to be CFIs, forever.... if you're going to do the job, do it well. Insist on a competetive wage. Don't ***** yourself out for nothing, take the time to learn a few things along the way, and then go to work for a quality airline, when you ae ready. If you are free-lancing you should be getting at least $50/hr, with the liablility you face, and the training you have behind you. I have found that if you are good at what you do, the word gets out, people will glady pay it.

I don't mean to sound like a marxist, but, If ALPA had any sense, they would try to organize CFIs. The only chance this industry has to be even a shadow of it's former self, is when the Regionals and Flight Schools have to start competing to attract qualified (in this day and age) pilots. A supply and demand issue is brewing...we need to capialize on it, now.

Well you are first year so yeah you wont make 40k, and I work at Expressjet not Pinnacle............................ If your second year how the hell did you only make 23 so far?

I am humbled and honored, gentlemen. Keep the blue up and the master cautions off.

I've been saying that ALPA needs to send an entry-level membership card and newsletter to every pilot that earns a CPL. The list is easy enough to get.

I hope so
 

You have my best wishes and hopes. It would be great if you would fly me to Europe one day.

SkyHigh

I would advocate that entirely. I might even kick in a little bit of money to help it happen.

On a related topic. I recently spoke with the DPE who is a regualr at my flight school. He made a comment on CPL's recently that hit home how bad it is going to get in the future. He said that 5 years ago, even with 9/11 he was doing 30-40 CPL's a year. He says he doesn't have to use one hand to count how many he has done in the past 12 calendar months. Other DPE's say about the same. Gear up, its going to get worse.

jbond and saab: I work at express with saab and for first year i will be around 34 grand gross and i didnt go crazy with open time. I enjoy my time off way too much and averaged about 85 hours or so a month. there are first year fo's here who get close to 40 first year. and can get into the 50's on second year pay.

Thanks Sky! :) I'd like to do the Caribbean runs on the A300 but if and when they get rid of those, I'll go to the 777 or 787 and fly you to Europe then. :D

Where did you get that ever so accurate crystal ball of yours? I need to get me one of those.

Please.

Hey brotha, I hope to make around 50 next year I live in Base so if its not a weekend Ill pick stuff up for the cash, especially in the winter, not much going on anyway, however I keep hearing EWR is in for deep deep SH*T, I hope the lines dont look like CLE's in a year, but I guess only time will telly, as long as I can hold a relief line Ill be happy, the next headeache will be picking which base i will have to commute to to upgrade :(