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Sr. Barco 07-29-2007 07:56 AM

Pilot shortage article
 
As airlines rush to add regional jets, one important question remains: Who will fly them?
Liz Fedor
Star Tribune

Vance Hopkins used to fly jets out of the Twin Cities for Pinnacle Airlines. He walked away from that job earlier this year to become a truck driver.

"I wasn't getting enough time at home," said the 45-year-old Hopkins man, who typically spent just eight or nine days a month with his wife and three children when he was a pilot.

"They were the ones that were making the big sacrifices," Hopkins said, adding that he now returns home every night after working as a short-haul truck driver in Northern California.

The job of a commercial airline pilot, once considered exciting and lucrative, has undergone a negative makeover complete! with lesser pay, longer hours and plenty of time spent on the road. The industry changes are especially severe for pilots who work for regional airlines, where the pay for first officers sometimes doesn't top that of a fast-food shift manager.

Many airline industry insiders say the United States is now struggling with a pilot shortage because airlines have created a harsher lifestyle for pilots. Some pilots are leaving the profession to pursue other careers, and some students intrigued by aviation are choosing other occupations and bypassing pilot training.

The Federal Aviation Administration has projected that the number of passengers on U.S. commercial airlines will increase from 698 million in 2000 to 878 million in 2011 -- a 26 percent jump.

Meanwhile, the number of pilots holding airline transport certificates -- the license needed at major airlines -- is expected to remain virtually flat. In 2000, 141,598 people held that license, and the F! AA expects a slight climb to 142,489 in 2011. The number of pi! lots wit h commercial licenses -- required at regional airlines -- is expected to decline by about 7,000.

For travelers, pilot shortages mean more flight cancellations. Pinnacle Airlines, for example, which operates regional flights for Northwest Airlines, disclosed in May that it expects to pay a $1.1 million penalty to Northwest because it didn't have enough pilots to fly the full schedule earlier this year.

The shortage also means there's a good chance that a newly hired co-pilot on your regional flight has less flying experience than newly hired pilots of just a year or two ago.

"You can teach somebody to fly relatively quickly. You cannot teach judgment quickly," said Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba Airlines pilots union. "Judgment takes time and experience to learn."

Brian Addis, who operated the Wings flight school in St. Paul for three decades, said a pilot's career is "not the way it used to be." People training to become commercial pil! ots now need to know that they "will be gone more and work harder for less money."

Many have already gotten that message and decided a pilot's license isn't worth the time and expense.

For many years, Addis said his school typically had an enrollment of 150. But he closed shop in March after the number dropped to 10.

John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) International, said the pilot shortage has its roots in 9/11, because major airlines slashed thousands of pilot jobs following the drop in passenger demand that resulted from the terrorist attacks. Many of the remaining pilots saw their pay reduced as the airlines struggled financially. Several carriers entered bankruptcy. Some airlines, including United, terminated pension plans.

Now, there aren't enough new pilots "entering into the pipeline because the [labor] contracts were broken in bankruptcy court," said Mesaba's Wychor. He argued that bankruptcy judges g! ave airline executives "carte blanche" to extract excessive co! ncession s. In the Northwest bankruptcy case, pilots took a 23.9 percent pay cut in 2006, which was on top of a 15 percent cut in late 2004.

Gearing up to hire

After hiring 4,779 pilots in 2000, the nation's major carriers hired just 549 in 2002.

The tables since have turned and big network carriers and regional airlines are seeking to hire thousands of pilots. Both Northwest and United airlines have recalled the last of their furloughed pilots and are hiring pilots for the first time since 2001.

Northwest said last week that it intends to hire about 300 pilots over the next 12 months; on the first day it accepted applications on its website, it received 250.

But Northwest is drawing pilots from the regionals at the same time that it is hoping to rely on the regionals more than ever to handle big parts of its flight schedule. Northwest is expanding regional flying by an annual average of 16.9 percent between now and 2010.

N! orthwest has allocated three dozen new 76-seat Canadair Regional Jets (CRJs) to Mesaba as well as 16 smaller CRJs that seat 50 passengers. That increased flying means that Mesaba expects to hire 695 pilots. The airline said Thursday that it has hired 285 pilots so far, and has received 1,400 applications.

Compass, a new subsidiary created while Northwest was in bankruptcy, intends to hire 350 pilots to fly 36 new Embraer jets that seat 76 passengers. Compass has hired 80 pilots and started to take delivery of the new planes.

Pinnacle, Northwest's third regional partner, employs about 1,250 pilots and has seen 168 resign this year. Phil Reed, Pinnacle's vice president of marketing, said that Pinnacle has made 254 new hires this year and kept a "large pool of well-trained, experienced pilots."

But Scott Erickson, chairman of the Pinnacle pilots union, said many first officers at Pinnacle have made lateral moves and taken jobs at other regional airli! nes. A beginning first officer at Pinnacle earns between $24,0! 00 and $ 25,000 total for flying more than 900 hours a year. (The FAA maximum for flying is 1,000 hours a year.)

Pinnacle pilots, represented by ALPA, have been in negotiations since July 2004.

"The terms and pay rates of our 1999 contract have languished behind the industry," Erickson said. "Naturally, substandard pay, benefits and work rules have been a major impediment to pilot recruiting and pilot retention in such a tight hiring market."

Minimums being minimized

Kit Darby, who recently retired from flying for United, has run a business for several years that helps pilots get jobs.

Through his company, Atlanta-based Air Inc., he distributes detailed information to pilots about hiring opportunities and job qualifications.

Many regional carriers used to require that new hires have 1,000 hours of total flight time, but Darby said those "minimums" have been dropping rapidly.

"When [airlines] are changing their mini! mums to get more people, then there is at least a shortage of what they previously were looking for," Darby said.

Mesaba lists 600 total hours of flying as "minimum preferred hours" for new hire pilots, but Darby said a Mesaba representative told him that exceptions would be made to that floor based on the chief pilot's approval.

Pinnacle cites 1,000 hours of flying time as a "preferred minimum," but since June Pinnacle management has been offering to pay employees a $1,000 "referral bonus" for each pilot they find who has 600 to 1,000 hours of experience.

Kent Lovelace, chairman of the Aviation Department at the University of North Dakota, said he believes the United States is experiencing a pilot shortage. He said that at one time pilots needed 1,500 total flying hours to get hired at regional carriers. Now, regional carriers are traveling to Grand Forks to hire UND graduates who normally would spend a few years building up their flight time as! instructors.

"We've had three airlines here in the l! ast week hiring," Lovelace said, including Mesaba.

Darby said some regionals are hiring people with only 250 hours of flight time, even though many regionals required 1,000 hours a year ago.

Mesaba said Thursday that its 600 "minimum preferred hours" of flight time is "consistent with regional carrier standards." Mesaba cited eight others, ranging from 250 hours at Trans State Airlines to 1,000 hours at Republic. Mesaba said that some pilots it hired in the past few months had more than 1,300 hours.

Log jam at the bottom

Mesaba's Wychor said it used to take about a decade for pilots to get on sound financial footing. They would earn very little pay as a first officer at a regional carrier, get promoted to a higher-paying regional captain, and then take another dip in pay after getting hired as a first officer for a big airline, such as Northwest.

After reaching the rank of captain at a major airline, their pay could soar compared t! o beginning pilots. As their seniority levels allowed them to fly larger aircraft, their pay would climb. For example, before a veteran 747-400 captain took two pay cuts at Northwest, that pilot was making up to $281,000. Now, that same pilot makes about $182,000 a year.

In recent years, movement to major carriers was stymied because the big airlines reduced their workforces and regional pilots had to stay put.

Sean Forster got tired of waiting for the logjam to break. "I sat in the top 10 of the Minneapolis [base] first officer seniority list for close to three years, because nobody was moving," Forster said.

Now 38, Forster left Mesaba in mid-2004 because he didn't think he would have enough good flying years to earn a decent retirement. He became a regional sales manager for a company that sells sporting goods.

"The most money I made at Mesaba any year as a first officer was $35,000," the Minneapolis resident said. "I remember my wife! and I went in to see an accountant and he laughed at us."

Pr ater, a Continental pilot who was elected ALPA president last year, is focused on negotiating financial and work-rule improvements for pilot groups across the United States. "It must be an attractive profession," he said, or there will be a long-term pilot shortage.

Prater said it's not a viable strategy to simply make the current supply of pilots work harder. "Pushing the pilots who are there to fly even more hours per day or more hours per month has directly led to a chronic fatigue situation," he said, forcing flight cancellations.

Some airlines may be beginning to take notice.

At UND, Lovelace said one airline inquired about sponsoring scholarships for pilots.

"I wanted to get off the floor," Lovelace said. "That's the first time any airline has talked about helping to support new, potential employees. His reply was, 'It's cheaper to do that than cancel flights.' "


Liz Fedor • 612-673-7709 • [email protected]

JoeyMeatballs 07-29-2007 08:00 AM

Sad when someone leaves the industry to drive a truck I will say of you cant make more than 35k as an F/O something is up, I will make more than that a second year F/O here, I am up to $19,500.00 this year so far and its first year for me

NetJets_DA2Easy 07-29-2007 08:25 AM


Originally Posted by SAABaroowski (Post 204510)
Sad when someone leaves the industry to drive a truck I will say of you cant make more than 35k as an F/O something is up, I will make more than that a second year F/O here, I am up to $19,500.00 this year so far and its first year for me

It's not sad at all, he left for a short haul truck driving job, home every night to sleep with his wife in his own bed, probably makes 80k - 100K or more a year, hell of a lot better than a regional pilot job and most flying jobs.

JoeyMeatballs 07-29-2007 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by NetJets_DA2Easy (Post 204518)
It's not sad at all, he left for a short haul truck driving job, home every night to sleep with his wife in his own bed, probably makes 80k - 100K or more a year, hell of a lot better than a regional pilot job and most flying jobs.

I guess...............I understand the industry has taken a beating since 9/11 but all is not lost and this industry will bounce back, and how and when it bounces back lies with us, I am getting involved here at the Union at XJT to do my part, we all cant wait and watch, we should all try to get involved, ok enough preaching form me.................

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 08:50 AM

Lost?
 

Originally Posted by SAABaroowski (Post 204532)
I guess...............I understand the industry has taken a beating since 9/11 but all is not lost and this industry will bounce back, and how and when it bounces back lies with us, I am getting involved here at the Union at XJT to do my part, we all cant wait and watch, we should all try to get involved, ok enough preaching form me.................

All is not lost but the industry will never be the same again. The best hope is to find a stable job where you will not be gone all the time and you can at least earn as much at a short haul truck driver.

SkyHigh

blastboy 07-29-2007 09:12 AM


Pr ater, a Continental pilot who was elected ALPA president last year, is focused on negotiating financial and work-rule improvements for pilot groups across the United States. "It must be an attractive profession," he said, or there will be a long-term pilot shortage.

Prater said it's not a viable strategy to simply make the current supply of pilots work harder. "Pushing the pilots who are there to fly even more hours per day or more hours per month has directly led to a chronic fatigue situation," he said, forcing flight cancellations.
Golly gee, I think the captain has figured it out! Genius.

Almost makes me want to be a career flight instructor: home everyday, own schedule, better pay, no union crap, short commute. But the industry has to make a comeback if they want to retain/hire pilots so I guess I'll be getting in at a good time.

JoeyMeatballs 07-29-2007 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204542)
All is not lost but the industry will never be the same again. The best hope is to find a stable job where you will not be gone all the time and you can at least earn as much at a short haul truck driver.

SkyHigh

I love it, I have talked to many UPS, DAL, SWA, FedeX, Airtran, JetBlue, Expressjet, AWAC, SkyWest, RAh, Delta, CAL, American, United pilots that all make much more than truck drivers............the List goes on and on, but oh wait I know there are 20,000 applicants for each....................

Jumperno64 07-29-2007 09:35 AM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204542)
All is not lost but the industry will never be the same again. The best hope is to find a stable job where you will not be gone all the time and you can at least earn as much at a short haul truck driver.

SkyHigh


I am starting to get a warm and fuzzy feeling about my futures as an airline pilot. I am only speaking for myself but this may be a good time for a newbe like myself to get into this buisness :D

JoeyMeatballs 07-29-2007 09:37 AM


Originally Posted by Jumperno64 (Post 204560)
I am starting to get a warm and fuzzy feeling about my futures as an airline pilot. I am only speaking for myself but this may be a good time for a newbe like myself to get into this buisness :D

me too, its going to be funny when we all are moving on making good money flying airplanes and SkyHigh will still bash the industry

Puckhead 07-29-2007 09:37 AM

wow funny I just got done reading this article in the paper and its here lol. Makes you wonder if its worth it.....but i think ill still take my chance.:D

KiloDelta 07-29-2007 11:08 AM

good article! If some things get changed, this is a great time for smart, new pilots to get into the industry. Of course you have to understand that you won't become a millionaire, and you will have to work really hard at first, but so do doctors and lawyers when they start out. (interns, residency, etc.)

bintynogin 07-29-2007 11:33 AM

I wish an airline would offer to pay off my loans like Mesaba is planning to do at UND. I wouldn't be Sallie Mae's b!tch right now:p

Sanchez 07-29-2007 11:37 AM


Originally Posted by bintynogin (Post 204600)
I wish an airline would offer to pay off my loans like Mesaba is planning to do at UND. I wouldn't be Sallie Mae's b!tch right now:p

Not to worry, I guarantee, you will start seeing more and more of this to attract and retain folks.

boeingt7 07-29-2007 01:09 PM

instead of airlines paying off student loans or giving sign on bonuses, both of which makes them look like cheap car salesman just trying to make a deal, why can't they do the respectable and more popular retention tactic and offer pilots a decent salary, a good lifestyle and a happy work environment. i believe the poster-child for these points would be southwest, and i haven't seen them hurting for a inflow of well educated and highly trained pilots. in my opinion, congratulations swa!

UnlimitedAkro 07-29-2007 01:45 PM

This is probably at least the 6th article I have seen on the "Looming Pilot Shortage" in the last 2 months. Previous articles published in CNN, ALPA Magazine, AOPA Magazine, USA today... the list goes on.

And the good news for the pilots: it looks like this is just the beginning of the pilot shortage problem. The problem is all across the board. A drop in flight training, less private licenses and far less commercial licenses issued in the last few years. Most flight schools are short on instructors from many being pulled into the regionals with abnormally low flight time.

And most recently, the majors now hiring at a increasing rate... pulling many of the regional pilots up to major airlines and causing other regionals to lower their minimums and fight each other for the few remaining pilots who have little or no flight time.

Many regionals are now paying current employees $500 to find pilots. Regional airline emails and memos are now sent out regularly twice a month reminding employees of the bonuses that are offered to find pilots! I'd love to have another $500... problem is, I cant find anyone else...

This is only the beginning of what could turn into a major shortage...

blastboy 07-29-2007 04:38 PM


Originally Posted by boeingt7 (Post 204631)
instead of airlines paying off student loans or giving sign on bonuses, both of which makes them look like cheap car salesman just trying to make a deal, why can't they do the respectable and more popular retention tactic and offer pilots a decent salary, a good lifestyle and a happy work environment. i believe the poster-child for these points would be southwest, and i haven't seen them hurting for a inflow of well educated and highly trained pilots. in my opinion, congratulations swa!


I agree! Why be so damn stubborn about improving working conditions and pay. They'll pay for university loans and offer bonuses to pilots who recruit other pilots, but they refuse to pay better wages and make the company, as a whole, a better place to work. The current business model is obviously failing so why not make change for pete sake!

I worked at the UPS ground hub for a short time at CAE and they strived to keep the employees happy, as this makes the company run more efficiently. Plus, if they ever wanted us to go the extra mile, we would be more than happy to do it because they took care of us and maintained a happy working environment. Those managers busted their tails to maintain it too! Maybe the poor working conditions at the regionals is just laziness on the managements behalf to simply make it a better place to work. (I hope that last sentence made sense)

saab2000 07-29-2007 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by blastboy (Post 204732)
Maybe the poor working conditions at the regionals is just laziness on the managements behalf to simply make it a better place to work. (I hope that last sentence made sense)

Laziness?
Incompetence?
Arrogance?
Ignorance?


The so-called 'regionals' are full of all of the above.....

And 9/11 is not a legitimate excuse. It is used by management as an exuse for their mismanagement and inability to adapt, but it is not a real reason.

Airlines around the world (which are for the most part not state-run entities) are making record profits and paying properly for their employees. Only the US airlines, and third-world airlines, are run like third-world companies.

The best run airline in the US BY FAR is SWA. Followed by UPS and Fed-Ex and CAL.

SharkyBN584 07-29-2007 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by SAABaroowski (Post 204510)
Sad when someone leaves the industry to drive a truck I will say of you cant make more than 35k as an F/O something is up, I will make more than that a second year F/O here, I am up to $19,500.00 this year so far and its first year for me

And you're excited about that $19,500???

desertdog71 07-29-2007 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by NetJets_DA2Easy (Post 204518)
It's not sad at all, he left for a short haul truck driving job, home every night to sleep with his wife in his own bed, probably makes 80k - 100K or more a year, hell of a lot better than a regional pilot job and most flying jobs.

I wouldn't count on it. Try more like $30-40K if he is lucky. I drove for 9 years and it is no picnic either.

GravellyPointer 07-29-2007 05:26 PM


Originally Posted by NetJets_DA2Easy (Post 204518)
It's not sad at all, he left for a short haul truck driving job, home every night to sleep with his wife in his own bed, probably makes 80k - 100K or more a year, hell of a lot better than a regional pilot job and most flying jobs.

Nope I bet your regional FO W2 he DOESN'T, not short haul anyway. My wife's Uncle is still a short haul day trucker out of SUX (Sioux City IA), he was in the mid 40's last year. Got to be a long haul trucker and gone 5 or 6 out of 7 to make that kind of money. Saw a long haul trucker on TV, he talked about checking in with his family about every two weeks! And he liked his job!

We think we have it bad, truckers have to fight a working culture that, at it's worst mind you, encourages log book doctoring, breaking DOT rules, popping pills, and frequenting truck stop prostitutes.

No offense to my high minded Trucker friends. My wife has two Uncles who truck. I like dem trucks.

GravellyPointer 07-29-2007 05:32 PM


Originally Posted by GravellyPointer (Post 204755)
Nope I bet your regional FO W2 he DOESN'T, not short haul anyway.

Sorry the two drinks in me helped overlook that you're a well paid NetJets Pilot, so change that to NetJets Pilot W2. (yea I'm envious of your pay ;))

JoeyMeatballs 07-29-2007 05:35 PM


Originally Posted by SharkyBN584 (Post 204751)
And you're excited about that $19,500???

Im sorry if you sensed excitement in my post, just meant that we make more than truckers and its easy to make more than 40k as a regional F/O

blastboy 07-29-2007 05:53 PM


Originally Posted by saab2000 (Post 204745)
Laziness?
Incompetence?
Arrogance?
Ignorance?


The so-called 'regionals' are full of all of the above.....

And 9/11 is not a legitimate excuse. It is used by management as an exuse for their mismanagement and inability to adapt, but it is not a real reason.

Airlines around the world (which are for the most part not state-run entities) are making record profits and paying properly for their employees. Only the US airlines, and third-world airlines, are run like third-world companies.

The best run airline in the US BY FAR is SWA. Followed by UPS and Fed-Ex and CAL.


I have been doing some research on Lufthansa, KLM and several other European carriers and they seem to have been doing just fine over the past several years. The work ethic in general seems to be much better in places like europe and even japan.

The US is supposidly a world leader but I just can't see that, especially with the airlines. The US airlines are by far the worst in management, customer service and treatment of employees. I sure hope things get back to pre 911 standards, or better, and why not!?! Why would the airlines not want to make things better than pre 911? This is the US. Businesses are suppose to move forward, not backwards.

maximaman 07-29-2007 06:16 PM

I have a friend who is a long haul truck driver and he only comes home about once every two months. Hes stays out to make money but the sad thing is he will probably barely make 30,000. The company he works for makes it near impossible to get benefits. I used to work at a grocery store so I would talk to all of the truck drivers. The only ones that make good money are the ones that never go home. Trucking is one of those jobs that makes it near impossible to have a family. Now my uncle worked for ups and was home everynight and made about 77,000 a year. It took him many years though to get that postion and had worked very hard for it.

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 06:45 PM

Let it be known !!
 
Let it be known that all who seek an airline job will be rewarded as such, however it will be for less pay and worse working conditions.

Every time the airlines get into a bind finding employees their solution is not to raise pay but to lower the minimums. If the deficit continues they will eventually start hiring cadet pilots, train them from scratch and then make them indentured servants to a massive training contract.

All the while grown up and experienced pilots sit on the sidelines. There is no pilot shortage only a shortage of people foolish enough to do it for the compensation offered. High school kids however will do almost anything to escape college and McDonald's. Brace yourself for the next generation.

SkyHigh

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 06:49 PM

Truckers
 
Whatever truckers make they didn't have to blow a fortune on flight training and a college education to earn less than mailman wages.

SkyHigh

SharkyBN584 07-29-2007 06:49 PM


Originally Posted by SAABaroowski (Post 204762)
Im sorry if you sensed excitement in my post, just meant that we make more than truckers and its easy to make more than 40k as a regional F/O

You're right. And what I'm saying is that making more than a trucker is nothing to write home about...and 40K isn't what it used to be...you live in the northeast, you of all people should know.

UnlimitedAkro 07-29-2007 06:51 PM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204801)
If the deficit continues they will eventually start hiring cadet pilots, train them from scratch and then make them indentured servants to a massive training contract.

SkyHigh

I've already heard of 2 regionals having their people investigating programs like these... so you are spot on. I dont know how far away it is until something like that is in place though. (?)

As for pay ever going back up... who knows. I only would hope...

402DRVR 07-29-2007 06:53 PM

Nic eto see a little publicity on the issue. I know when I started my little break from the airlines I joibed the service at the lowest paygrade and with bennies took a pay raise. That's as an enlisted guy at the bottom of the list. I had been flying a CRJ.

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 07:05 PM

Military?
 

Originally Posted by 402DRVR (Post 204808)
Nic eto see a little publicity on the issue. I know when I started my little break from the airlines I joibed the service at the lowest paygrade and with bennies took a pay raise. That's as an enlisted guy at the bottom of the list. I had been flying a CRJ.

I have always mentioned here that if a guy were to skip college and flight training and simply join the military they would be much better off.

Not only do military personnel receive awesome benefits but it is often overlooked that almost every other expense is covered as well. Military people receive housing, food and some form of clothing allowance. In contrast a new regional pilot earns a similar wage but has the added burden of living expenses and often a huge student loan as well.

A soldier can save almost every dime of their wages plus can expect to retire in 20 years. Good luck coming even close as a pilot. By the time a military enlisted person is ready to retire the pilot hasn't even reached a major yet and still had many years left to pay on loans.


SkyHigh

maximaman 07-29-2007 07:06 PM

In the future the only real career choice will be to build houses like Skyhigh.

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 07:08 PM

Future
 

Originally Posted by maximaman (Post 204819)
In the future the only real career choice will be to build houses like Skyhigh.

In the past our country was built upon the small business. The cycle is coming around again. In the future the only way to earn a better living will be to own a business. Anything that involves labor and skills will be in demand.

SkyHigh

maximaman 07-29-2007 07:13 PM

Today its seems hard to run a retail business when competing with all the big box stores. Small business can be successful though when you are in a specialized field.

Jbond006 07-29-2007 07:28 PM

SAAb I work at the same place you do and I am not going to make anywhere near $40000 for the year might make 23000 before taxes after payroll deductions for uniforms and taxes much much less. It is a joke and I bet you are working extra picking up red flag and giving up QOL if at $34/hr you ar making 40k and pinnical pay isn't that high for an FO. I agree the future looks very bright for us as Airline pilots. We have to take what is ours though. This means when everyone’s next contract is up we need all the majors and regional to bounce back pre 9/11 pay plus inflation and then some and get better work rules. I am still on reserve and I love my job but I am sure it will be much better once I am a line holder and can't get abused. Our contract is one of the best in the industry but we still get abused. I couldn't imagine working at a place like mesa or other places with their work rules. SAAB I believe you made a lateral move to get to express. Was it do to QOL and why should you have to do that? Another problem is pilots as a whole flying an E-jet basically a DC-9 with the 190 and 170 replacing mainline route for less pay because it is at a regional and doesn’t say Boeing. Making less flying one of those than guys flying a 50seater with worse work rules would be embarrassing to me. I hope we can all stick together as a pilot group in the years to come and get this profession back to its old glory.

There is no job I would rather have than being an airline pilot but I think carriers need to raise rates and pilot need to stop paying for every 2 bit hillbilly who wants a $99 round trip to Ft. Myers.

Jason

emsgoof 07-29-2007 07:54 PM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204817)
I have always mentioned here that if a guy were to skip college and flight training and simply join the military they would be much better off.

Not only do military personnel receive awesome benefits but it is often overlooked that almost every other expense is covered as well. Military people receive housing, food and some form of clothing allowance. In contrast a new regional pilot earns a similar wage but has the added burden of living expenses and often a huge student loan as well.

A soldier can save almost every dime of their wages plus can expect to retire in 20 years. Good luck coming even close as a pilot. By the time a military enlisted person is ready to retire the pilot hasn't even reached a major yet and still had many years left to pay on loans.


SkyHigh

Yep, and the only thing you have to give is back to back 18 month deployments to the desert, leaving family and friends behind. Or better yet, a 4 year sea duty rotation, followed by what is supposed to be your 3 year shore rotation just to have them pull you to the desert again as an individual augmentee for another branch of the service. Then, if you are one of the people to get hurt on AD, you get to come back to an incompetent VA program, where they don't treat you, and give out your personal information because they "accidentally" let someone take a laptop home, so now you can't even apply for credit unless it's in person because you have a warning on your credit reports... (ie: no pre-approval for mortgage or vehicle loans, etc)
Better yet, you wait 2 years on an on-base housing list just to get into some rat-infested firetrap (no they're not all like that) while your housing allowance doesn't cover the amount you have to pay in rent / commute costs.
Yeah, military is freaking sunshine and rainbows...

sflpilot 07-29-2007 08:33 PM


Originally Posted by KiloDelta (Post 204589)
good article! If some things get changed, this is a great time for smart, new pilots to get into the industry. Of course you have to understand that you won't become a millionaire, and you will have to work really hard at first, but so do doctors and lawyers when they start out. (interns, residency, etc.)

Oh stop with the doctor thing! Pilots are not doctors and never will be. You can't even compare the two.

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 08:45 PM

Skills/labor
 

Originally Posted by maximaman (Post 204824)
Today its seems hard to run a retail business when competing with all the big box stores. Small business can be successful though when you are in a specialized field.

Competing in retail is difficult. I would recommend cultivating a skill or trade that is difficult to duplicate.

I have a friend who took a 6 week course on HAVC and now is worth several million as a specialist in geothermal heating and cooling systems. He has never hired a single employee but has several independent contractors that work with him.

I also work with a Mexican national who came to this country ten years ago with out any formal schooling or english skills. Today he owns a successful landscaping business and earns as much as a major airline captain.

SkyHigh

ChinookDriver47 07-29-2007 08:46 PM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204801)
All the while grown up and experienced pilots sit on the sidelines. There is no pilot shortage only a shortage of people foolish enough to do it for the compensation offered. High school kids however will do almost anything to escape college and McDonald's. Brace yourself for the next generation.

Skyhigh

Holy crap Sir, you just described PERFECTLY what is going on with a certain flight school, in a certain branch of the military. Prior experience excluded, the active side of the house is recrtuiting kids out of high school to be combat helo pilots. The selection rate is good too.

Short story...I was in the elevator headed to class on base when in walks this kid, no mroe than 20 who was sporting wings and a flight jacket. I asked him what he flew, he told me, and I asked "Sir, no disrespect, I am sure you get this all the time, but do yuor parents know that you are flying a combat airframe?" He laughed, said he did in fact get that alot and he had just gotten off the phone with his mom.

We were in the same astro-physics class. I got a better grade than he did.:D

Indeed be prepared for the next generation, but don't dog on them until you know them. There are a still a few good apples out there who were raised right and have a decent work ethic. VERY FEW, but they are out there.

blastboy 07-29-2007 08:47 PM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204801)
High school kids however will do almost anything to escape college and McDonald's. Brace yourself for the next generation.

SkyHigh


LOL This is so sad but can become a reality before we know it. The US has some of the lousiest standards for business and work ethic in the world, particularly for the airlines as most of us know. It would not surprise me if highschool kids start flying RJs fresh out of a cadet program. LOL The solutions that companies come up with to solve their labor issues (lack there of in current events) is illogical, idiotic and just plain stupid. This beating around the bush that the companies are doing with the pilot shortage is going to cost them huge in the long run. The solution is to just pay better wages, drastically improve benefits/retirement and improve the working environment to make the company more attractive which will increase employee longevity. Maybe if the companies started listening to the people (the employees!) that know what they're talking about they can actually move forward and get somewhere instead of taking huge strides backwards. And just maybe for one day an entire schedule can be fulfilled without delays due to a pilot shortage. It's amazing that most of these managers and CEOs graduated from Ivy league schools but have the logic, reasoning and brains of a rock. Actually, they would probably be out smarted by the rock.


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 204881)
Competing in retail is difficult. I would recommend cultivating a skill or trade that is difficult to duplicate.

I have a friend who took a 6 week course on HAVC and now is worth several million as a specialist in geothermal heating and cooling systems. He has never hired a single employee but has several independent contractors that work with him.

I also work with a Mexican national who came to this country ten years ago with out any formal schooling or english skills. Today he owns a successful landscaping business and earns as much as a major airline captain.

SkyHigh

The framer for our up and coming house makes more than a senior captain at a major airline. The plumber makes a truckload as well and the dump truck driver makes a little over $50K, as I looked into that for myself. The pay for most trade skills is going up while the pay for pilots is remaining at a level that amounts to dunnage dumped overboard from a ship (compared to what it use to be!)

SkyHigh 07-29-2007 08:47 PM

Sunshine
 

Originally Posted by emsgoof (Post 204855)
Yep, and the only thing you have to give is back to back 18 month deployments to the desert, leaving family and friends behind. Or better yet, a 4 year sea duty rotation, followed by what is supposed to be your 3 year shore rotation just to have them pull you to the desert again as an individual augmentee for another branch of the service. Then, if you are one of the people to get hurt on AD, you get to come back to an incompetent VA program, where they don't treat you, and give out your personal information because they "accidentally" let someone take a laptop home, so now you can't even apply for credit unless it's in person because you have a warning on your credit reports... (ie: no pre-approval for mortgage or vehicle loans, etc)
Better yet, you wait 2 years on an on-base housing list just to get into some rat-infested firetrap (no they're not all like that) while your housing allowance doesn't cover the amount you have to pay in rent / commute costs.
Yeah, military is freaking sunshine and rainbows...

It may not be perfect but the military will take care of you. Try being laid off during an industry slowdown.

SkyHigh


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