Regional upgrade opportunity for new FO's
07-31-2007, 04:29 PM
#11
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Hey Rick the actual PICrequirement is not necessarily true, at least for an FAA ATP. I am one of those people who falls in the category of people who have no PIC time but can still go get an ATP. The way this is done is by logging "PIC duties" meaning with the Captains concurrence, an FO can be designated to run the show and log "PIC duties" for that leg. This is not PIC time, but rather a fictional category to satisfy this requirement. The FAA and the DE's at Skywest are aware of this and from what I understand theyll be using this more and more to get those guys upgraded.
07-31-2007, 04:38 PM
#12
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by ghilis101
Hey Rick the actual PICrequirement is not necessarily true, at least for an FAA ATP. I am one of those people who falls in the category of people who have no PIC time but can still go get an ATP. The way this is done is by logging "PIC duties" meaning with the Captains concurrence, an FO can be designated to run the show and log "PIC duties" for that leg. This is not PIC time, but rather a fictional category to satisfy this requirement. The FAA and the DE's at Skywest are aware of this and from what I understand theyll be using this more and more to get those guys upgraded.
It's good that SKW is specifically authorizing the "SIC acting as PIC" thing. It would not be possible to do that on revenue flight without the airline's (and FAA's) concurrence...way too much grey area there.
07-31-2007, 07:42 PM
#15
APC co-founder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by rickair7777
For clarification, ICAO ATP privileges do not normally require 2500 hours, only 1500. The need for about 2500 hours applies only to those hired at an airline with low total/PIC time...the formula is complicated and has been addressed elswhere.
The key experience requirements for a low-timer (assume worst case: wet commercial) to go from new hire to ICAO ATP would be:
-150 Actual PIC. It would be possible for a graduate of a part 141 training program to not meet this requirement by a significant margin...time to go rent an airplane and do some flying! CE-150's can be had for $60/hour, wet.
-2100 hours SIC time at the airline (in lieu of 1050 hours of PIC). How long would this take? Typical scenario...
1-2 Months: New Hire training, zero flight time.
3rd Month: IOE, 30 hours
4th Month: Consolidation, 70 hours
5-6 Months: Reserve, 20 hours
7-12 Months: Line, 75 hours x 6 months = 450 (570 total SIC)
Year 2: 900 hours (1470 total SIC)
Year 3: 900 hours (2370 total SIC)
So slightly less than three years at most airlines. Significant reserve time could drag this out.
The key experience requirements for a low-timer (assume worst case: wet commercial) to go from new hire to ICAO ATP would be:
-150 Actual PIC. It would be possible for a graduate of a part 141 training program to not meet this requirement by a significant margin...time to go rent an airplane and do some flying! CE-150's can be had for $60/hour, wet.
-2100 hours SIC time at the airline (in lieu of 1050 hours of PIC). How long would this take? Typical scenario...
1-2 Months: New Hire training, zero flight time.
3rd Month: IOE, 30 hours
4th Month: Consolidation, 70 hours
5-6 Months: Reserve, 20 hours
7-12 Months: Line, 75 hours x 6 months = 450 (570 total SIC)
Year 2: 900 hours (1470 total SIC)
Year 3: 900 hours (2370 total SIC)
So slightly less than three years at most airlines. Significant reserve time could drag this out.
08-01-2007, 05:36 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: ERJ 145
Posts: 363
So what happens when a guy upgrades with FAA ATP mins, but not the ICAO privilages? What restrictions are there? International flying? And once they do meet the ICAO mins for ATP, is there a change to the certificate?
08-01-2007, 07:51 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Right Seat
Posts: 1,458
I am not sure about all the ICAO stuff you are all discussing, but the FARs require an ATP to be pilot in command on a 121 operation. I'm sure everyone knows what the ATP mins are. What your company requires for captain upgrade is another story. It all varies by company and is a function of insurance, not regulations. My company only requires ATP minimums for upgrade.
08-01-2007, 09:09 AM
#18
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by AV8ER
So what happens when a guy upgrades with FAA ATP mins, but not the ICAO privilages? What restrictions are there? International flying? And once they do meet the ICAO mins for ATP, is there a change to the certificate?
If your airline (or your equipment) doesn't go somewhere requiring ICAO, then you airline could let you upgrade with just FAA times.
Another possibility for regionals that do international flying would be to allow FAA-only upgrades but restrict them operationally to the US until they reach 1200 PIC. Unfortunately this creates a big problem because junior CA's don't normally have a schedule... they sit reserve. If the guy going to PVR calls in sick then everybody's SOL.
Most large jet regionals simply require ICAO for upgrade, to make their lives easier. SKW does not have an ICAO requirement...historically most of their applicants already had the ICAO times, and they just started doing mexico flying. It will be interesting to see how they handle this when the time comes.
08-01-2007, 09:24 AM
#19
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by PoBugSmasher
I'm in kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm at 2450 total, but no Part 121 or turbine experience and just getting ready to start training.
To those who have been there:
Is it possible that I will really have half a clue, if I have an opportunity to upgrade with only 1000 hrs/1 year or so in the jet?
Is there any sort of break down for the 2500 hours that ICAO requires, or is it simply 2500 hours total time?
To those who have been there:
Is it possible that I will really have half a clue, if I have an opportunity to upgrade with only 1000 hrs/1 year or so in the jet?
Is there any sort of break down for the 2500 hours that ICAO requires, or is it simply 2500 hours total time?
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