UPT Washout
 

First post here. I love the forum, lots of great info. So here goes my story...I was a prior enlisted crew chief on A-10's at an Air National Guard unit in the Midwest while I went to college full time. After taking almost 6 years to graduate because of 2 trips to the sandbox I began interviewing at guard units for a pilot slot. I was selected by a unit out west to fly F-16's. I went to officer training, got commissioned, then headed off to Mississippi for UPT. I started out flying the T-37 and did really well. I finished that phase of training in the top 1/4 of my class. From there I went on to fly the T-38 and did well initially. I flew a good jet, studied my tail off, and even soloed the thing half a dozen times. My troubles began after I completed my formation solo ride and began tactical formation training. For one reason or another I just couldn't "get it." Again, I always flew a good jet but had troubles with some of the admin areas which led to some SA issues due to task saturation. Needless to say this threw up all kinds of red flags because of me being fighter bound. I ended up busting my formation check which eventually led me going through a commander review process. The outcome of the review was me being eliminated from training. I fought to stay in training so I could go on to fly herks or tankers but wasn't able to because the syllabus doesn't allow a retrack back to T-1's and I wasn't quite close enough to graduating to be allowed to finish T-38's then go on to heavies. My IP's and commander's at my UPT base and my guard unit fought to allow me to go heavies but the powers that be just didn't see it the same way. So after all the years of hard work and after completing 10 of the 12 months of UPT I became a UPT washout. It absolutely devastated me not to be able to graduate with my classmates and go on to serve as a pilot in the guard in any capacity...I even volunteered to fly UAV's. The unit that hired me released me back to my original unit where I was enlisted and I now serve with them as a maintainence officer(now I'm a 1st Lt). I've spent this past year instructing and I'm ready to make the jump to the regionals. I'm interested mostly in Republic, Expressjet and Comair. I have 1200TT, 250 multi, 150 turbine. I know that folks who wash out of UPT tend to have a negative perception. Could you guys and gals give me some advise on how to address this issue on a resume and during an interview. Will a regional even want to hire someone in my situation? I know the training with a regional can be tough but after surviving 10 months of UPT I believe I'm up to the task. I'm ready to close that chapter on my life and begin my civilian career. Sorry for the long thread but I wanted to give all the details. Thanks for the help.

Hi Colts. From what I know UPT is incredibly intense. Just getting into UPT is a feat in itself. I applied to like five units and was interviewed for only one for just one slot. I was selected as an alternate (a Comair f/o beat me to the primary slot). If you were training for an F-16 unit that says a lot about your background, AFOQT's, and personal qualities. As anybody knows in the ANG fighter units are especially harder to get into than the T-1 tracks. I'm sure the guys/gals on here will have some good feedback as to interview pointers for this issue. In the meantime keep your head up you're an Officer in the ANG thats a lot to be proud of. What happened with UPT doesn't define you.

sorry to hear about that.. like uvmflier said what happend in upt doesn't define you... a buddy of mine wasn't able to get through the tactical formation flying either. he just had a hard time getting close to the other guys. he trusted his own flying, but didn't trust the other guys, and that can be bad in combat. he didn't have any flying experience before going in, so that made it a little tougher. did you have any flying experience (more than 250 hours) before starting. anyway if you made it that far into upt, then you will be fine at the regionals. good luck.

A bud of mine had a sort of similar situation. He got on with a regional and now is a CA at a major airline.

Attitude overcomes everything. Always be honest in an interview. Be positive.
Get on with a good regional and apply everywhere.

You've got great experience. Any man who gets up after a failure is a man I wan't to fly with.

Best wishes.

There are plenty of military washouts in the civilian world. At your first job they may probe a little bit just to ensure that you didn't wash out for attitude reasons...don't get defensive. Just explain succinctly that you had problems with complex military manuevers, not basic airplane flying.

Long term you'll be fine...and stay in the guard so you can get a buddy hookup at FDX or wherever.

timing is everything. i went through upt 4 years ago when if you had a pulse you got your wings, that was right after 9/11 and they couldnt afford to wash guys out. now the mentality is different because the pipeline shrunk big time and the demand for pilots in the military is much lower.

you will be well AHEAD of your guard/reserve counterparts in my opinion. youll be at a regional by this fall, upgrade in 1-2 years, and be eligible for a major shortly after that.

your military buddies will be ahead of you in regards to pay, but youll blow them out of the water with flight time. you already have more flight time than i do in the military!

What do you mean by "admin areas that led to some SA issues"?

I would think you'd be fine as long as you were honest. It's especially helpful if the reasons you didn't make it through UPT have absolutely nothing to do with 121 flying (hence the above question). From what I'm reading, I don't think your ability to pass tactical formation flying is really gonna hurt ya ;)

This won't be a problem for you at all. Just be honest and up front. In a few years you will be with a major airline, and your buds from UPT will be calling you to get advice on the airlines. I have helped interview at a major airline and this was pretty common. Hang in there and keep flying. You'll be fine.

Years ago, Kit Draby's magazine did an article on upt washouts, see if you can do a search on his websites. All in all, the article was positive for those who washed out in training. They were in some cases flying for the majors. It is no different than if you washed out of regional trining except you had it a lot tougher. Be honest and upfront and most regionals would be glad to have you. Good luck.

I experienced both sides of this first hand. In the near year that I was there I saw guys failing out of training for many reasons,including academics, and still being reinstated and allowed to get their wings. Towards the end of the year though more and more folks were getting removed from training and sent home. There were two other guys who washed out of T-38's at the same time as me...almost unheard of up to that point.

By admin areas I'm referring to the overall management of a 2-ship formation in a tactical environment. Tactical formation flying in much more involved than regular formation flying. I simply had trouble flying my jet and maintaining formation integrity while doing tactical maneuvers. I did better when I was the wingman but really struggled when I was lead and had to manage the other guy as well.

Thanks for the responses so far. My attitude was always my best quality and I was given letters from my flight commander and squadron commander stating that I was a great student who worked hard and was positive but was unable to finish the program because of the constraints of the syllabus. Are there any RAH, XJet, or Comair folks who can recommend how to present this on the resume to HR and during the interview. Any other advise for those companies would be great also. Thanks for everyone taking the time to help.

just refer to it as a training failure and the rest of your credentials will get you hired no problem. trust me if regionals are hiring 300 hour guys, your experience in the AF and being a CFI put you well above other applicants. Shoot your resume out and apply to all the regionals and take it from there.

Dear Clots07

Who is writing is someone that has had all licenses revoked from the Feds.

I have accrued almost a total of 5000 hours between Single Turbine and jet time in the past several years …!!!! I was a Chief Flight Instructor Part 141.…and 135.….bla….bla
Without mention names or Airlines…I have been offered jobs as soon my licenses will be restate it….!

So go figure ….You are absolutely fine …you have time experiences and foremost a “Military training’ which for an (Regional Airlines) means a lot.

By The way…(Hopefully some from the Feds participate in this forum can back me up)

The Regional like all the other Airlines are looking for Civilian background ( FAA ) which during your conversion from your DOT licenses .....the hours ............will be “translated’’ in a actual Flight time without “wash out remarks “ in your file ……Believe me, I was contracted as a Chief Flight Instructor for an A.F. Base

Please Pm me
For further Details..


MaxJet

Hi and welcome to the forum. Posting what you did took a little courage and it's a good thing you did.

There are many different types of flying. I know 20k+ hr heavy pilots that shake at the thought of flying crop dusters and duster pilots who don't know what airspace is above 18k feet. Your abilities in a fighter won't have so much a bearing on your abilities as a regional/major pilot.

I'm very sorry you didn't make it. I worked very closely with the UPT program for a little over a year and know how stressful it can be. I've seen guys with over 2500hrs go in and wash out completely. Sometimes it's just not what you were built for. What ever you do don't let it determine the road ahead of you. You have a bright future in aviation if you stay with it. The training you receive for a regional jet simply doesn't compare to the intense military training you get in UPT.

I'm at RAH and it's a good company. Where are you currently living? If interested in RAH send me a pm. I have no problem going through your resume with you and helping you promote yourself. It's not about failing. It's about showing how you learned from that situation. It's sounds like your issues for failing wouldn't infringe on your abilities as a commercial pilot. Keep your chin up and you'll see good things happen. Everyone fails something sooner or later, or should have, so it's just life. Yours happened at the wrong time. You realized what you were doing wasn't up to the standards needed for that situation which is one of the hardest things to ask of someone. Shoot me a pm if interested in RAH.

"Will a regional even want to hire someone in my situation?"

Just tell it like you told it here. In the present hiring enviornment, I doubt you'll have any problem. Good luck to you.

First I want to say having even gotten as far as you did in UPT is remarkable.

I work for Republic specifically for Shuttle America as Capt on the ERJ-170. I would say that talking positively about how you have learned from your experiences and has only benefitted you as a more experienced pilot and person is the way to approach HR and an interview. I would think that our company would love to have a person like you and it shows perseverence on your part to continue after a setback. Our company across all 3 certificates is struggling to find qualified pilots not unlike all the other carriers. As far as training I would not think that you would have any difficulty with initial training at all.

Hope this helps,

ERJ CAPT

ERJcaptain.... i just accepted a class date with Shuttle.... can you email me... i have some questions. [email protected]

What if you "failed out" of an officer training program?

"So why did you wash out of UPT?"

"Well, I had a little bit of trouble doing a Split-S and getting the guy behind me to follow."

"You're hired...please take my first born son as a signing bonus."

Basically, your qualifications should speak for themselves and the reason you washed out had nothing to do with flying in the 121 world whatsoever. Be honest and tell them what you learned. You've got the advantage in that your "tell me about a time..." story has absolutely nothing to do with anything even close to being 121 related. Be humble, appreciative, honest; and you'll be just fine.

you dont disclose that information because its not aviation training related

That one is not so good. You will DEFINATELY have to tell them because you will have to report all employers (including military). OCS is designed to mostly test personality, motivation, ethics, leadership, and stress handling all of which are relevant to the airlines (especially captains). Any sort of "suitability drop" would worry me, as well as an academic failure, because OCS academics are not that hard compared to 121 training (which is also conducted under stress).

If you failed the underwater swim or pushups, that will not be a problem. Anything else, you need to come up with a good explanation and be prepared to talk about what you learned from the experience.

WHat ? Does every OCS, ROTC and Military Academy drop out have to explain their deficiency in "motivation, ethics, leadership, and stress handling ?" I could point out numerous contributors on this forum that have these deficiencies

These commissioning programs have participants leave for a variety of reasons - most of them personal , some academic, and some because they just don't have the apptitude to command a missile silo, etc.


There are probably hundreds of professional pilots airline that left these programs earlier in their careers.