PIC Time
 

I know this has been discussed before, but I did a search and can't find it. For those of us who have been hired with low time (I had about 600) what does the future hold for us for majors, etc... after a few years. I have less than 500 PIC obviously, and never counted my dual recieved as PIC as most airlines do not recognize it. Does this mean I have to go fly the crap out of my brothers traumahawk or what? What is this I heard about part of your SIC going towards PIC, and is this only for ATP minimums? Places like CAL who want 500 PIC and 500 SIC, and other majors who have their PIC requirements.....what to do? I guess I should figure this out soon so I can fly the traumahawk as much as possible during the next few years haha......... Thanks

And what about those hired with 250 TT? I guess they would be in an even worse boat than myself?

Not to be rude or offend you, but I guess that's the price you pay for taking the quick road to the shiny jet. Getting into the right seat of an RJ quickly does have a cost. Either get some command time as a CFI, traffic, pipeline patrol, etc.. or worry about it later. You can't just skip it.

Ive got about 40 planes I can use for the price of gas, that is not a problem, just wondering if I SHOULD hop in the right seat of the grumman/piper/cessna again.......

Also I have in's at several places (parents, several family members) That is not the problem!!! My question is PIC time and having their minimums. CAL and others don't HAVE a PIC turbine minimum, obviously I have no chance at places that do (SWA, etc)..... Somone just answer the question on the SIC counting partially as PIC for the ATP, etc. Thanks

The likelyhood of being hired with no turbine pic is not good...even tho some have at CAL. For those who got hired with 250TT, its gonna be hard to upgrade if they dont even meet ATP mins. I think those regionals are going to figure that out soon enough, do I hear street ca again?

Probably. But the biggest concern to me is when these 250 hour guys start to upgrade and are in charge of a 50,000+ lb. jet having never really had to make a decision in an airplane. (Without a safety net)

The quick answer is that it will delay your upgrade by a few years and then delay building PIC time by another few years.

OPS SPECS (FAA Regs) at your company will outline required flight time breakdowns required for Capt. upgrade. I believe at some regional carriers it was 3500 hours TT to upgrade. After upgrade, you'll start building PIC time which will take more time to get to whatever the magic number is to move on.

Just because CAL doesn't have a turbine PIC requirement now doesn't mean they always won't. Things like that change with demand.

And if I am correct, NO airline counts Dual Recieved as PIC. I have over 500 PIC according to the FAA, but not to the AIRLINES.... So basically I need to wait at my regional to upgrade and build PIC by their OPSECS, OR fly our planes around for 200 hours to get the REAL PIC (not including dual recieved)

I don't know if there is a PIC requirement for an ATP but can't you just wait to upgrade at your current regional job? I must be missing something.

Not missing anything except that upgrade at my airline is around 5 years at least, and I have family members that said I am a shoe in once I hit 2000TT.... the problem is the PIC.... Guess im going to start flying our little planes

Back to my question about PIC NOT including dual recieved as recoginzed by the airlines for minimums????????? anyone?

The newest SF3 CA upgrade award is an August 2007 newhire at Mesaba. Upgrade time is now down to 2 months or less at Mesaba if you have more than 3000 hours and have an ATP. This is mainly because too many FOs with higher seniority before him do not meet the upgrade std. Most regionals have upgrade min time as 3000 hours or more and ATP in hand. So if you start out with 600 hours you will have to fly your ass off for at least 2 1/2 years or more and then upgrade to get the T PIC time. PIC time droning around in a C 172 do not count very much to Majors.

Where are the 3000 hours and ATP requirements coming from?

I think I must have quoted that number wrong. What is the upgrade requirement at Mesaba? I heard that from someone during groundschool. Is it 3500 hours?

ATP mins and some company time (which can be reduced)

It might have been mentioned, but you only need those 250 hrs to get your ATP out of the way. Don't know where your connections are at, but if they're at CAL you might have a little bit of luck getting in w/o turbine PIC or waiting around for upgrade. A guy i know explained that they had several individuals who were never captains in his recent CAL class, while it wasn't the "majority" it also wasn't a rarity to see. If you're looking at places that require the 1000 TPIC, well...you'll either have to get that time, or wait for the mins to change.

you could jump ship to a regional that has a quick upgrade, probably one of the smaller turboprop operators out there, and try to get your time that way. But on reserve, it'll take you quite some time to get some more PIC, (as you probalby know) on the other hand...you could try to get enough PIC to get over your 500 hrs PIC, and 500 hrs SIC issues.

And no, the FAA says you have the 500 hrs of PIC, just the other airlines might not.

I have close to 5000 hours, almost all of it turbine ME 121 time. But I have less than 200 total PIC. Now that I have upgraded, that will increase rapidly. But my SIC time and all the quality of my time means NIL, NADA, NOTHING, etc.

I get talked to like an equal in terms of experience by whomever I talk to, but when it comes to that all important resumé, there is nothing like PIC and even more nothing like turbine, 121 PIC.

Get thee to a job where you can upgrade quickly.

I see pilots with equal total time (or less) moving on because they got their PIC.

FWIW, I missed out because of a furlough in 2003. Started all over again.

Get your PIC at a regional (preferably jet, but that doesn't play a huge role AFAIK).

saab2000, Good advice. I agree 100%.

P.S. I was wrong about upgrade requirement at Mesaba. RJ85FO is absolutely right.

Don't forget that Continental requires 1000 hours turbine in addition to others, which are as follows:

1,500 hours fixed-wing total flight time
1,000 hours fixed-wing PIC time, or 500 hours PIC time and 500 hours SIC time in a turbojet
1,000 hours fixed-wing turbine time
1,000 hours fixed-wing multi-engine time (civilian or military) or 1,000 hours single-engine military fighter jet time
A current ATP written exam
A current first class FAA medical
A current passport
A Bachelor's degree is highly desired

So either way you are going to need 1000 hours turbine time.

You shouldn't feel like you are the only one that has the no real PIC time in the logbook. There a huge amount of guys that went for the jet F/O job with really low TT. So what if all your time in the begining is SIC. You just have to wait for upgrade at your current company. Once you upgrade then it shouldnt take you longer than 18 months to get 1000 PIC Turbine. Then you have options.

Its not that big of a deal in terms of the length of your entire career.

Poak, your a chick, UAL is hiring, what more do you need:p

here we goooooooooooooooo hahaha

Half joking of course ;)

Poak? its paok...poak sounds like some fat sloth creature..... So yeah I spoke with some family members, I definatly need PIC. For what its worth I am going to do my brothers instrument and commercial... I know its a piper, but it can't hurt. Hopefully upgrades will start to come down at Comair. Im gonna have like 4000 Turbine and 280 PIC, now that is hilarious.

CL601- I know there are TONS of people in my position and ton that are a lot worse....I am interested to see how it all pans out 5 years from now!

Saab, why do you mention UAL? They hire chicks with 800 hours? SWEET!

haha Im just messsing with ya, If I were you and you honestly have a "shoe in", I would do COMAIR for a little while longer until you really feel comfortable (Absorb as much as you can) and then go to a place like Mesaba where you could potentially get hired as a street CA or upgrade within a year. If I had a shoe in I would get the PIC time, ( have 1100hrs PIC, but 0 turbine PIC) I woud do that and get out of the regional world ASAP.........

Boyfriend and I shoulda gone to Mesaba when he got recalled and I had an interview...but we stayed at Comair for New York.....

ill be your boyfriend

At least your at a decent regional. I think that most people wanted that first job so bad that they went and took the first one that came along that would hire them. Then they get upset when they find out its a crap company. What most people now days don't realize is that virtually all of the regionals have become a really tough place to work.

The way is was years ago, before the 500 hour whiz kid phenomenon, you had to plan on being at a job for a much longer period time before upgrades and moving on. So most people were a little more careful with regards to who they work for. I know guys who said no when they got offers and had no backup jobs. They used the crap carriers for interview prep and stayed instructing until Skywest (they were the absolute top of the regionals back then) would call and thats only because you needed a relative inside at Horizon to get in there plus a letter of rec from god himself.

Hey Saab, Your a such a Love Machine! Its a wonder you have time to fly your line of time.

Your right. I PICKED Comair for QOL, Base, and it is a decent place to work. Cancelled other interviews, etc... and chose to come here. I am just trying to figure out what I am going to do in the future. Always looking forward to the next step. I don't think I want to make a lateral move. Maybe if I was based AWAY from home and had a horrible QOL, I would leave for the upgrade. As nice as it would be to be at Mesaba with a quick upgrade, I can tell you I would not be happy living in a crashpad in Memphis. I am not unhappy here, and upgrades ARE comming down at all the airlines. I guess I'd be even worse off at say Eagle, lol.

Thats for sure. I don't know anyone who works under the AMR umbrella that really likes it. Check out their pilots walking through the terminal. None of them look all too happy.

I know!! Infact, I dont know any pilots who like flying at all.

Well... I didnt want you to look like an idiot all by yourself out there.... just intentionally keeping you company.

Sorry, I wasn't refering to you and your friends with the backpacks.

The regs basically say that you need 1500 hours of total time to earn your ATP and be eligible to upgrade to Captain (PIC). Some airlines determine their own eligibility requirements above what the regs require. (4) States the min of 250 PIC, but can be as SIC acting as PIC as well as the XC and Night time.

61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.
(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

So you should be able to easily meet ATP mins while SIC for any airline.

and again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Ive seen plenty of pilots from Skybus with backpacks, but Skybus doesnt fit under that umbrella you have never been under. Strike 2.

First, I don't agree with the system that allows someone with 600hrs or less in the right seat. However, that's the system and you made the right decision. Stay where you are (fly open time), upgrade build your PIC (again, fly open time) time that way. Forget about SE-PIC, at this point it gets you nowhere. It's called paying your dues.

Hey dude - we already settled this, remember?? She's gonna be my girlfriend!! ;-P

Go be a CFI it's a great and rewarding experience. I have about 1800hrs PIC. Granted that's not a whole lot but it does meet the requirements someplace. I can get my resume in there much sooner and keep working where I'm at till they answer. In my opinion that's a big plus. I hope to have moved on to my next job before becoming a capt here.