It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything. I dont think we differ all that much in how we feel. But having been in this business once before, and having a very bad union experience I might add( essentially told by union big wigs to take the contract even though it sucked, and we had a 98% strike vote.... ), and having run my own business for the past few years I tend to look at these thing from both points of view. I would be the first to say that AMR's bonus to its managers while pilots are on furlough and took huge pay cuts is frankly deplorable.

Frankly the flying public doesnt care how highly trained we are. They want to fly from A to B as cheaply as possible. And they will fly whomever will get them there cheaply. There are exceptions but the LCC would not exist if this wasnt true. Its simply the WalMart mentality...they want more for less and could care less in general who provides the service as long as its cheap and gets them there fairly on time.

Not sure what if any non aviation background you have but I would say that office politics as you put it probably plays less into it than you would think especially at very large tech savy firms ( something I have some experience with ). Does it play a part sure, but ability and commitment and many other things contribute to promotion in the private sector. Certainly seniority based systems so away with that but they do have their problems as well although for the record I believe in seniority based systems, their downside being that if something happens and you leave a company or are forced to leave for many reasons...you end up starting at the bottom again NO MATTER how MUCH experience you bring to the table. To me thats a BIG problem that there is no good solution to thus its something we will live with.

I agree the paychecks have not kept up.... but that goes back to the thoughts above. The flying public is always looking for the better price...carriers match prices on routes, thus if carrier A is charging 40 less than carrier B... A will charge 40 less to match the fare.... it doesnt matter what type of carrier they are...in most cases the fare will be matched. Throw in the power of the internet for people to browse for pricing thus downward pressure on revenue, ...well you get the picture.

as for the big tycoons and investors.... and this wont be a popular statement...but companies exist to provide a service and produce a profit for the shareholders. Now certainly good employee relations should allow for good service thus ensuring rising profits but in many cases, companies will do what they have to do to keep the bottom line in the black and rising..failure to do so is the kiss of death for a management team in any business. Its a catch-22, and one which has actually led to the rise of the JET/NAtional carriers as we know them today.... the mainlines in an effort to control costs have looked to these carriers to provide service at costs they simply can not achieve. And to take this thought even further, again this is being driven by the flying public who not only wants a cheap fare, they also want more than one or two flights a day between destinations.....they want in many cases 5,6 or even more flights between a city pair everyday so that flying is convienent for them. 25 years ago if you wanted to fly from say MSY to PHL you might have had two choices of times to make the flights connect, hell now I can probably have my choice of non stops and one stops with probably 6-10 different departure times to choose from. So what is the result of that.... much of the off peak flying is filled in with the smaller jets and tprops to give the public what they want. Its a vicious cycle.

As for doctors and lawyers and pilots... you go to a doctor when you NEED him... he is no out seeking your business. Lawyers are the same way, YOU go to them when you need them, yea they advertise now, but really they are driven by the public needing them. ..Now pilots.....flying for the most part WE need them, the public figures that a pilot is a pilot is a pilot and the they will seek out the cheaper fare. I dont know many people who seek out the cheaper doctor....they want the best doctor and price be damned in most cases. Lawyers too.... they want the best and are willing to pay for it. People wont price out the cheapest MRI or heart surgery. PEOPLE will price out the cheapest airfares.... we might deserve it as you put it... but reality of economics are that our services are in demand but only at certain price points. People WILL stop flying if the price becomes prohibitive.... they will not stop going to the doctor or using a lawyer to sue people.

Always in good spirit my friend, always.

APC peeps. Take note that this is the proper way to have a disagreement of opinion.

Yes. Well spoken and true enough; alas, mine is the challenge of changing the momentum of a social norm. *sigh*

But, why/how has it gone so far out of whack? Pilots used to be highly respected in this country. The aviation sector is a huge slice of the GDP after all, and a very sensitive slice of the GDP too. I just don't get it... it must be the RLA. Gotta be. You get beaten down with your hands tied behind your back often enough, and you will never get respect. See, when MLB went on strike a few years back, it was a national tragedy- when we strike, we are simply greedy sob's who don't know our place.

Anyone feeling the rage here, or am I plumb crazy?

ERJ... I wish I knew that answer. LOL, I dont feel the rage but I am just as frustrated as the next guy. As for the greed, if the union albeit ALPA for most and soon to be IBT for me really wanted to do a some work for the smaller carriers they should do extensive programs detailing the low wages at these carriers. Quite frankly if you tell the flying public that the CA or FO of their 777 is making lets say 140,000 per year for the CA and 90,000 per year for the FO.... just examples folks hold your disdain, ....their first reaction will be... damn thats a nice paying job.... remember even your average flying public JOE probably doesnt make that kinda jack...... but if you show them the CRJ or ERJ F/O making 20 grand a year and the CA making 50,000 to that they probably can relate and be a bit more sympathetic. For our end of the business to change and to get substantial pay increases at both the mainline and feeder carriers more revenue per seat needs to be generated. To do that, prices across the board have to be increased. To achieve that the public MUST be educated as to the current state of the labor force in the airline industry. The perception is that all pilots no matter what they fly make crap loads of money. Changing that perception is the only way to get it back, anything else is just a band aid on an amputation.

the RLA has something to do with it, but the real answer behind what happened can be seen in the distribution of wealth in the United States. The elite rich (and i mean really really rich) and for the most part, the republican party, had a brilliant realization that they could put more money in their pockets by driving down the cost of labor, among other things, and profiting in ways that the middle class cannot.

This is not directed towards pilots alone. Its directed towards all labor. Nobody is immune. Lawyers, Doctors, auto workers, and pilots, WE ARE ALL FIGHTING THIS BATTLE and the sad thing is nobody is going to save us. The only way to get rich anymore is to be your own boss, youve heard that over and over im sure. Business is the only way to make money now, because you can bypass this whole battle in many ways.

This is NOT a conspiracy, and its not a plot to hold anyone down. Its simply the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, and the middle class going away. If you were rich and greedy youd be doing the same thing. Yes, this is EXACTLY what happens to third world countries if it happens long enough. What has saved labor in the past has been unions and the government. Now government wont save us anymore and I could speculate on why but I dont want to anger anyone who might side with the administration.

If you dont think anything is wrong, ask yourself why the DJIA is at a record high, yet housing is f*ed up and interest rates had to be cut the keep the economy going? If you talk to some people you would think were in a depression right now and inflation is getting dangerous, yet the overall numbers indicate a strong economy? Im certainly not benefiting! My wages suck, yet everything else around me keeps getting more expensive. w.t.f. over? while im at it let me go off on a tangent here, i got a solution to pour more money into the economy- why dont we cut taxes so I can save $50 a year woohoo. meanwhile the elite rich guy saves hundreds of thousands, but thats ok becaus supposedly hes going to "stimulate" the economy with it. once again im not feeling any of that stimulation but boy he sure is. again, w.t.f. over?

Give your tax cut back if it bothers you so much. You can make direct contributions to the USTreasury.

Herc, ghillis and ERJ.....great, intelligent posts! Thank you :D

Herc & Ghillis just saved me a lot of typing. (i.e. evidentially I concur)

One point is getting that message out there is difficult when there have been huge cutbacks in reporters/writers, a labor reporting philosophy that's decidedly a part of the ultra rich, and ultra consolidated corporate media conglomerates.

If the woe of the professional pilots message were to get through, I still see a huge problem with getting the general public to think that raising fares is a good idea since the ultra cheap products and services paradigm is so widespread.

Sure, and when you find one, I'll be properly embarrassed!

Maybe you should raise the standards you set for yourself, there, College Graduate!

sorry to get off topic... im sure most of give back when we can, including donating to our favorite charities. Seriously tell me who I can make the check out to so I can give my tax cut back, because it comes out to about 5 dollars a month and id love to give it back to go into our school systems and roads etc. nobody likes paying taxes but theres a certain level of social obligation involved. Im not saying strip people of their hard earned money, im just saying its a known fact that when you cut taxes we dont really feel much of it at our level, well at least my level since i cant speak for you. This is also one of the reasons im a proud union member who doesnt hesitate at all about paying dues (Its not quite the same but I believe its for a good cause for every one of my fellow aviators).

at any rate, labor is in big big trouble and i just dont see any good things happening. the new equilibrium for wages across all trades and industries is being established, and once that happens it will be hard to make it budge in the correct direction. the funny thing is if you run the statistics on average salaries in America in the future ill bet you the numbers will look great. But when you run the stats on the variation / standard deviation of these salaries youll probably be shocked. the tiny upper class will be in an an unbelievably elite tier, the new middle class will be mostly upper level managers, and everyone else will fall into the lower class. but everything will be just fine because the DJIA will be at 18,000 or something.