PNCL contract- day 900!
 

Well the company has come out and is saying they want to implement new FO pay rates- evidently they cannot fill classes or keep people around. The rates are rather "industry average minus 4-6%". The contract is still not settled but they want to bring these rates in now. On the company board we are all saying NO. Fo's would love the raise but the company needs to deal with everybody. Plus this can very easily be viewed as "good faith" in front of a mediator to drag out talks some more. Just keeping everyone in the loop. I am on my way into work so I am sure some other PNCL people will post some more. A contract is definately getting closer, the company is realizing 2 things.

1. They must raise pay/work rules/benes to attract and attain
2. The union/pilot group is not taking crap from the company


And with the huge percentage of FOs and CAs that are going to time out this year this whole thing is going to get interesting!!:rolleyes:

Please, please, please shoot for FO pay at least 60% of CA rates and CA rates equal or higher to XJT. As far as workrules; take your pick between what's out there for what will work best for your group.

PATTERN BARGAINING!!!

hahahaha,, yeah i laughed when i saw that letter from our mec chair.. sure i would love a 10 dollar raise but i want a contract, not something else that will drag these negotiations out another 900 days.. it took almost 3 years of patiently waiting for this time but it is here.. the company is short on pilots, we cant recruit, and the group is ready to strike... i believe all of this is coming to head because we have several grievences that will be ruled on before the end of the month,, some of them, including the colgan scope grievance, would be devestating to the company..

I love it! First ASA now Pncle; the industry is starting to turn around. Slowly, yes! But it's changing. Carriers are starting to realize the pool is drying up and they have to set themselves apart from others in order to draw the lowly pilot into their webs.

This is the beginning and I can't wait to see where we are in 10 years.


p.s. For SKW pilots, vote YES for your future! Your family! & your Careers! & leave your greed out of it!

This raise would be a bandaid, but not a fix. I can feel something in the air here at old pinnacle. I believe that the MEC should shoot this offer down 100%. This is the first sign of weekness that management has shown, they are aknowledging that they can't fill classes. I know that delta does not want to have a problem with one of its new carriers, so this could be a very good sign for pinnacle pilots.

Congrats bretherin, try to raise that bar!

Yes it would be a "Band-Aid" but the overall affect is a good beginning. We need to raise the bar and this is a sign that carriers are finally starting to feel the pressure which will allow us to gain/regain what we/others have lost.

This is exactly the same ploy that ASA Mgmnt tried before agreeing to their new contract (still has yet to pass the pilot group

Hang strong guys/gals!

As I said on the company board, I have 500 bucks in bills that I can't pay because I make poverty wages. The extra money would be great. But it’s not just about me. It’s about helping this entire industry by showing these management groups that we wont take this anymore. We are an extremely qualified and professional pilot group and we deserve better treatment. I have gone this long with low pay and have managed to keep good credit. I can continue to fight for a while longer. Management sending us this proposal only makes me want to fight harder for what we deserve. TRUST ME, PINNACLE PILOTS WILL NOT SIGN A SUB-PAR CONTRACT OR SOME B.S. LOA (letter of agreement) MANAGEMENT WANTS US TO SIGN. This is just another ploy by management to drag our negotiations out even further.

Great News
 

That is great news. As a brand new FO, I am absolutely in favor of NOT accepting the band-aid.

I understand there is some sort of suit pending regarding the new hire bonuses. From what I understand, it is a change in pay without union agreement, and the union is arguing in court to do something...I dunno...get the old contract thrown out completely?

I just got my bonus and don't know if I need to bring it to anyone's attention.

Thoughts?

yes, this is one of the SEVERAL grievances that are about to be handled very soon with an arbitrator decision.. cash your bonus man its yours, they cant take it back because contractually that is what you were told when you were hired. what will happen is that the company can be fined by the union or "exchange" this violation to get something we want in return.. Scope, bonuses, prefbid, vacation slides, all of this is coming to a head in the next couple of weeks,,,, i think the company is in for a big suprise.

It's going to get interesting soon!

Good Job,
You and the others continue to set the industry example of what pilot groups are capable of.

I'm afraid if we take this increase in pay, it will decrease the amount we are eventaully able to bargain for in the end. The first year still sucks if you ask me, we have waited this long, lets do this right.

Just curious.... what is their Offer for 1st year FO pay....

Oh Boy! Subscribed!!!!

What is their offer for second year FO pay? That's what needs attention just as much.

i have been off for a bit but from what others are writing on the message board they got a memo that said 22 1st year, 31 2nd year, and 34 3rd year... everyone knows that isn't going to work... i say NO DEAL HOWIE!!

Same here.... I think the poll is somewhere around 176 vs 4 in favor of NO.
I'm pretty sure those rates are not going to happen.

This "offer" is a slap in the face. It amounts to the company suggesting that we are so underpaid and desperate that we are willing to wh*re ourselves for a few more bucks.

We want a fair contract for our entire pilot group and nothing less. In fact, we want simply the best contract...

Good...

...because those rates SUCK and you guys are worth so much more...

It's time to finally get the universally crap-@ss first year FO pay up to AT LEAST the $30/hr range. While I doubt that anyone can achieve that YET, I think it would be great if you could at least break the $25/hr barrier for first year FO's. So far, I believe only Horizon is up there, and they've been there for years.

If you guys could get up around $27-$30 for first year FO's, you would not lack for applications and would finally be able to staff up.

This is a new era for regional pilots. Managements are struggling, and it's time to drag the pay up kicking and screaming the whole way.

Just the fact that decent FO rates, including first year pay, seem unrealistic reminds me of how far this whole industry has sunk.

Please also keep in mind that beating that first year FO pay is tremendously important to every other pilot group in our country. With staffing as competitive as it is, other management teams would be forced to respond if one actively recruiting company actually starts paying their first year FO's above poverty wages. (Yes, I am aware that Mesaba's FO pay scale is equally shameful and pathetic.)


Good luck guys. We are all with you on this.

what is interesting is that this is the FIRST time management has admitted there is a problem with hiring/attrition/staffing.. i mean just a year and a half ago they stopped hiring and cancelled upgrade classes just to threaten us because we hadn't signed the contract they threw at us. that threat only lasted 2 months,,, and now they are paying for it.. big time. captain vacancies go unfilled, there will be 25 people to show up for class and only 10 come.. this is the first tangible evidence we have that shows management is starting to squirm... funny enough this comes out 2 days before another round of mediated negotiations are about to start. i hope we take it to the table and say raise it another 5 dollars per year and we will sign a NEW CONTRACT... the contract has been pretty much finished but we have been stuck on compensation and scope for a while now..and like i said earlier we have several rulings of grievances due by the end of the month. they are feeling the heat.

Good luck guys...keep fighting for your pilot group.

Wait did someone say pinnacle has a sign-on bonus? I mean that's a good START to perks.... but then you have to follow up with decent pay.

Well, it sounds like some good news for you guys/ gals. Stick it to them while you have them in your corner because it could be 6 or 7 years before another one gets signed ;)
I'm proud of that pilot group for fighting so hard! keep it up.

There is no way that you could ever expect $30/hr first year as a regional FO. You have no experience in the field, and a number of legacy carriers pay that or just above it there first year. According to the pay scales on this website, Delta is the only carrier that pays above $40/hr first year. Who wouldn't want $30, but you have to be realistic. You come from flying a 172 or small twin and expect $30 first year. And now alot of new hires were never instructors, they come from bridge programs where they have always been a student. I believe with Pinnacle, the argument isn't with 1st year pay, it is with the subsequent years. I am fine with making $21 first year. It is your probationary year and first with a 121 carrier. Second year pay at Pinnacle is what I have a problem with.

I understand your mindset, but unfortunately I believe that this displays a weakness in the mindset of the regional pilot. Who cares that this is your first 121 job? That doesn't make a difference when you consider that you are flying virtually the same routes as legacy pilots, albeit with a few less passengers.

I am not arguing the first-year's case in lieu of other raises. I just think that a push should be made across the board. If you can't get the increase first year, so be it, but you might as well try.

It is my honest opinion that the regional compensation package is a nationwide B-scale that management uses to their advantage. Better compensation / collective bargaining agreements at the regionals will benefit the entire profession from the bottom up.

Good luck guys, take a stand.

liveable wage
 

Most expect first year pay to suck. I think the company justifies it by saying they have spent oodles of money on your training, guys used to pay for their training. Although this doesn't excuse it I think it will stay for some time. After the first year though an FO should expect a liveable, good wage. 40k should be a minimum for second year and then up from there. One day upgrades are going to slow and FO's are going to be stuck on this crappy never increase payscale.

Look, I already said that I know it is unrealistic, but if we ever want to fix the general suckiness of this job, we need to start setting some goals that raise the bar. There are plenty of technical careers out there that start wet behind the ears college grads at $40K or higher, or at least in the upper $30Ks. Furthermore, ALL decent corporations invest plenty of money in their new hires. The only thing that makes airlines any different is their ridiculous stinginess. It is their job to train us. They train us to work for THEM. Our training is 100% NON-TRANSFERABLE. There is absolutely NO legitimate justification for an airline to dock our pay just because they trained us. That just amounts to pay for training.

If you actually think that first year FO's SHOULD be paid less than $30K a year, then this job will just continue to get worse and worse.

You know management has done a fantastic job when they get pilots to do their stealing for them.

There is absolutely NO justification for low first year pay. We are professionals, and professionals do not start at $20K a year in 2007.

I am going to a Career fair in Miami next week -

Want to meet and understand the recruiters - not ready to leave for a full time flying job for a few months - but I think I would if I knew I could make at least 35K which might keep me at zero profit/loss for the first year.

I think a lot of other guys with good times are sitting on the sidelines with good day jobs waiting for the same thing.

You guys thoughts?

Raise the bar!
 

Furthermore, the argument over the relative inexperience of a new-hire is faulty. I understand that brand new guys aren't really pulling their full weight right out of IOE. However:

1) Does the Captain, who is picking up the slack, get a pay bump to compensate?

2) Is there a 3 yr. FO sitting in the jumpseat, to help out, 'cause we all know that the newbie is not "really" qualified?

No, because the newbie is qualified, and is the only FO sitting in that airplane that requires an FO, so he d@mn well should be paid full FO pay.

Additionally, most guys get into the swing of things in a few months. If you're flying, and not just warming up the crashpad on reserve, it does not take a full year to come up to speed. I believe Champion gives newbies a big raise at 6 months (several dollars/hr) Why not try something like that? It is absurd to justify a huge year long pay-cut (longer at PCL, 'cause you start the 1-ry clock after IOE, right?) just to make up for the federally mandated non-transferable training. It's not the new guys fault, is it?

If we're going to raise the bar, it should be for the whole seniority list, across the board.

Besides, it would be a real coup to get regional first year pay above the cr@p-@ss first year pay on offer at NWA. This would help them out, too.

.......(Had to eat breakfast....sorry about the rant...)

@ PCL, the clock starts at the checkride...close enough...

Right now, that would be flight instructing at a factory school. The one I used to teach at is paying $29 an hour. I flew about 1500 hours a year there, not sure if things have changed, but I have seen a couple places offering $40k for full time instructors.

Mountain Air Cargo starts Caravan captains at $34k. Great company by the way.

If you have enough hours, look at some 135 jobs. Different kind of flying (piloting rather than programing), but fantastic experience.

Wish you all well with the negotiations. PNCL is where my first app is going after graduation in the spring and it would be great to have the first and second year pay livable.

don't count on the first year being livable... maybe the second.. they are in negotiations now and will be till wed night. we will be having a confrence call on friday so we will see what happens.

Is the info for the call on our ALPA site? Where do I find it?

Make sure your email is registered on airlinkpilots.. you will get both email reminders with info and a phone call reminder. Its an easy process- plus you get all the MEC updates and payday hotline.

I tried to register for it last week but it said something like crew planning had to send over my information or whatever. My guess is that will not happen until I am done with OE. Thanks for the reply!

As far as getting on airlinkpilots, you don't need to wait til OE is done. I was able to get on the site while i was in ground school.