Last minutes of Comair 5191 (security video)
11-19-2007 | 10:35 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 614
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XJ,
I am glad you are able to take off at an airport without a controller. If you would care to read the NTSB report and the ALPA submission along with the Comair submission you will realize what was clearly stated is a major contributing cause was ignored. I hope if you or anyone you know is involved in a tragedy that the ignorance in which you show and that of the final ruling does not throw you under a bus.
By no means am I saying that the controller was the only factor in this accident but convenient oversight by government officials and people like you led to major contributing factor not being studied to prevent future occurrences.
I am glad you are able to take off at an airport without a controller. If you would care to read the NTSB report and the ALPA submission along with the Comair submission you will realize what was clearly stated is a major contributing cause was ignored. I hope if you or anyone you know is involved in a tragedy that the ignorance in which you show and that of the final ruling does not throw you under a bus.
By no means am I saying that the controller was the only factor in this accident but convenient oversight by government officials and people like you led to major contributing factor not being studied to prevent future occurrences.
11-20-2007 | 12:54 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: CRJ F/O
spoken like a true jet pilot. Wrong runway is wrong runway. There are factors that led to this incident but you can not excuse the fact that they lined up and laid the whip on the wrong one. There is no mystery as to which runway you are going off of, and yes I have flown out of LEX and it can be confusing, but it is by no means a sole controller error. Know where you are, and the blame goes to one specific place, and while not always fair, this is a pure pilot error. It taste bitter, but it is a pill that we all must swallow.
I am not trying to state that pilot error was not involved. However in true fashion of any accident their were multiple errors that led to the loss of 5191. The conditions that existed that day including improper staffing, incorrect taxi diagrams, and Notams continue today at many airports and continued in Lexington after the accident. A failure to look at all factors lead to the likelihood that this could happen again. It only takes one break in the chain to prevent the accident. In the future lets just hope that chain brakes to help overcome the pilot error.
The only way I know to ensure that is if all factors are looked into and discussed. Just because a pilot is capable as XJT stated he could taxi at 6:00am doesn't mean a mistake will not happen in the future.
11-20-2007 | 01:04 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
From: 1st year pay for the 3rd time
Take a step back
Sigep,
I am not trying to state that pilot error was not involved. However in true fashion of any accident their were multiple errors that led to the loss of 5191. The conditions that existed that day including improper staffing, incorrect taxi diagrams, and Notams continue today at many airports and continued in Lexington after the accident. A failure to look at all factors lead to the likelihood that this could happen again. It only takes one break in the chain to prevent the accident. In the future lets just hope that chain brakes to help overcome the pilot error.
The only way I know to ensure that is if all factors are looked into and discussed. Just because a pilot is capable as XJT stated he could taxi at 6:00am doesn't mean a mistake will not happen in the future.
I am not trying to state that pilot error was not involved. However in true fashion of any accident their were multiple errors that led to the loss of 5191. The conditions that existed that day including improper staffing, incorrect taxi diagrams, and Notams continue today at many airports and continued in Lexington after the accident. A failure to look at all factors lead to the likelihood that this could happen again. It only takes one break in the chain to prevent the accident. In the future lets just hope that chain brakes to help overcome the pilot error.
The only way I know to ensure that is if all factors are looked into and discussed. Just because a pilot is capable as XJT stated he could taxi at 6:00am doesn't mean a mistake will not happen in the future.
MP,
I think we have to take a step back. I don't think XJT was trying to flame anyone here. You're right, there was a long chain of events that led to the accident and a second controller may have been helpful. But we don't know that. Usually we switch to tower freq before we get to the runway.
When I read the transcripts or new articles I'm always left with the same feeling that I had watching the United 93 movie. In the end the crew would pull it out and it would have a happy ending even though I know that isn't what happened.
I will say this; every flight I have been on has always had both pilots verify the sign, paint, and heading. Its not much but I hope this type accident will never happen again.
FWIW
11-20-2007 | 11:35 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
We fly out of several airports without towers....... Who is supposed to be watching to make sure we takeoff on the correct runway in those cases? ATC function is to provide separation not tell you how to fly the acft. Yes, safety is everyone's job but this one is on the crew. You want ATC to micromanage your acft? You want less responsibility (and pay) as PIC? Keep blaming the tower and you will get what you want. Instead of raising the bar for pilot performance (and pay) we'll just spend all the money on more controllers, Mode S transponders, NextGen ATC, lower the bar (and pay) and hire Homer Simpson to fly the plane. Get used to hearing "Doh!" on the radio AND when you open you paycheck!
Be careful what you wish for.
Be careful what you wish for.
Last edited by seaav8tor; 11-20-2007 at 11:50 PM.
11-21-2007 | 10:44 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
From: SAABster
XJ,
I am glad you are able to take off at an airport without a controller. If you would care to read the NTSB report and the ALPA submission along with the Comair submission you will realize what was clearly stated is a major contributing cause was ignored. I hope if you or anyone you know is involved in a tragedy that the ignorance in which you show and that of the final ruling does not throw you under a bus.
By no means am I saying that the controller was the only factor in this accident but convenient oversight by government officials and people like you led to major contributing factor not being studied to prevent future occurrences.
I am glad you are able to take off at an airport without a controller. If you would care to read the NTSB report and the ALPA submission along with the Comair submission you will realize what was clearly stated is a major contributing cause was ignored. I hope if you or anyone you know is involved in a tragedy that the ignorance in which you show and that of the final ruling does not throw you under a bus.
By no means am I saying that the controller was the only factor in this accident but convenient oversight by government officials and people like you led to major contributing factor not being studied to prevent future occurrences.
"HDG 220.......RWY 22 OOPS wrong runway lets fix this" I didn't hear that on the CVR!! Sounds like 'crew oversight' NOT government oversight! People like me.....
12-19-2007 | 08:17 AM
#16
Gets Weekdays Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
From: Economy Minus
Not my quote, but maybe apt...
"Whenever we talk about a pilot that has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgement. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgement was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgement, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose."
"Whenever we talk about a pilot that has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgement. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgement was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgement, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose."
12-19-2007 | 08:49 AM
#17
Banned
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,929
Likes: 0
From: A-320
Not my quote, but maybe apt...
"Whenever we talk about a pilot that has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgement. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgement was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgement, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose."
"Whenever we talk about a pilot that has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgement. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgement was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgement, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose."
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