US Express Crash
 

I have to say for an article written about a crash I have to say this is one of the few that doesn't stray off into hollywood with passenger accounts. If you notice the passangers were actually thanking the pilots and flight attendants for the job well done. :D This is a classic example of why we deserve more than poverty wages! Shot an approach down to 300 and 1 1/2 with fog and snow, slid off the runway and still has the composure to give the pax a relaxing and reasuring brief. Well done.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/ha...6.27d7e63.html

I gotta say seeing that picture really hurts.

Yes, it does hurt. The truth will come out and I suspect that will hurt too. Glad it wasn't worse.

Hadn't even heard about this one...wow.

what prey tell, is the hurtful truth you surmise?

I'm glad everybody was ok, and I'm very curious to find out what happened.

This article was pretty good, although I think publishing anything that most passengers say aside from "we landed hard and slid off the runway" is not the most responsible thing to do. Publishing the comment about "we were perpendicular to the runway" is sure to mislead everybody. I'd bet they were perpendicular to A runway, not the one they were using...

Anyone know what the winds were during this accident?

*edit*

found the wind on wunderground for that night... there was a very significant wind shift just after 1700... i.e. just after they landed. LLWS perhaps?

I don't want to speculate publicly and shouldn't have even said what I said. There are no facts out there that aren't already widely known.

Let's wait for the report to come out.

I agree, however, If it's true that the pilot said they had a "hard landing", then, we all know that is not good.

My sim partner from training flew a trip to there that afternoon from ATL...they landed (his leg) , he said it was "fair braking action at the time, however it was mostly snow" they then deplaned and reboarded and took off an hour later back to ATL, at the tiime of departure he said it was changing over to sleet and the runway seemed more slick then when they had arived, he then said that they departed as the AWAC plane was on final.....so they got out just before this happened...overall according to him the conditions just downright sucked, glad everyones ok though

Perhaps there was a high xwind? That would account for the pax description of being "perpindicular" to the RWY. That combined with rapidly changing RWY conditions is a receipe for diasaster.

You need runway friction to just stay on the runway in a xwind, to say nothing of braking. The TR's will likely hurt more than they help in that situation.

SPECI KPVD 160945Z 04014KT 1SM R05/5500VP6000FT -SNPL BR BKN005 OVC050 M04/M06 A3012 RMK AO2 PLB44 PRESFR P0003

METAR KPVD 160951Z 04013KT 1 1/4SM -SNPL BR SCT005 OVC050 M04/M06 A3012 RMK AO2 PLB44 PRESFR SLP198 P0004 T10391056

They were executing the ILS to RW05 according to the weather at the time the winds were about a 12 knot head wind and a 2 knot left cross wind but the weather in the METAR also showd PRESFR Pressure Falling Rapidly so maybe they had some wind shear their was also Light Snow and Ice Pellet in the weather as well I am not going to speculate I am just happy that no one was hurt.

Guys remember this winter weather flying can be a challange .. Fly Safe Yall

I thought I read in the article that... "(The National Weather Service said that cloud cover was 300 feet and visibility was a mile and a half in fog, with 6 mph winds from the north.)"

Its in paragraph 15 of the article. That doesn't coincide with the METAR...

Double post.

I don't think weather or field conditions were the primary cause, just my uneducated $0.02.

What do you think was the primary cause?

i think its better to get on the reverse first...then slowly apply brakes....i dont really trust the anti-skid....it gives you quite the uneasy feeling....its a huge relief that everyone was ok

I'm just looking at the facts here:

- Ran off side of runway, not the end
- No major crosswind
- Weather itself wasn't "bad" (1 mile isn't really that bad)
- Collapsed left main gear

Why does the anti-skid give you an uneasy feeling? It gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing it's there.

This is probably coming from somebody who's never used anti-skid. It works, but it's definitely weird. It doesn't grab like it should, especially on snow, and if you apply the brakes too quickly before throwing up the spoilers, you'll get a feeling like you're basically not braking at all. So yeah. It works, but it's weird.

As to your list of the "facts", well, again, don't know if you're reading the same article or have that much experience with.... weather. Reading a couple of factors off of a METAR don't give you a full picture of the situation. As a lot of people have said, the prelim report hasn't been released yet, so I hesitate to comment, but falling pressure and different wind directions before and after the incident definitely at least allow low level wind shear to not be ruled out. Plus, left gear might have collapsed due to the landing ("impact") or hit FOD or been faulty in the first place, or for whatever reason. Fact is your "facts" don't really amount to much, and certainly without knowing all the factors, you can't automatically assume what the cause of something is.

On a lighter note:

Skidding off the runway? Left main separated from the aircraft? Dragging a wing on the ground? Yeah, I'd say that "this is not right".

EDIT:
Sorry if I come across as harsh, I don't mean to, I just hate it when people jump to conclusions based off of something that they read in an online article.

I'm not even sure why we even have the NTSB. All they need to do is call you guys for all the answers.:rolleyes:

Wasn't the time of the accident around 1700 local? That'd be 2300Z... these metars are from about 0500 local.

Well its like locking up your car on a ice patch and the ABS kicks in....its not a pleasant feeling...but your right...afterward your like "Man...good thing i have it"

The TR's on the CRJ work pretty well, ill go full reverse on a snowy runway and save my brakes for under 80Kts....think about it....if they touched down at MLW i think Ref+5 is 144kts....it would be very easy to lose directional control at that speed when you get on the brakes...granted you bleed off energy as soon as you touch down...but its still very fast

In the CRJ with a x-wind component, you are better off using brakes w/ idle reverse. Blend in more thrust as the a/c slows. Reversers first will amplify the weathervaning tendency of the a/c when used at higher speeds. I'd be surprised if your aircraft/ops manual didn't reference this somewhere.

ref+5 at MLW in the CL-65 is 146... ;)

METAR KPVD 162151Z 05003KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC003 03/02 A2896 RMK AO2 DZE2058RAB2058E39 PRESFR SLP805 P0004 T00330022

SPECI KPVD 162157Z 02005KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC003 03/02 A2895 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 2 PRESFR ACFT MSHP

I stand Corrected, thats what happen when you are sleep deprived, even better the winds were right down the Runway but the Pressure was still Falling Rapidly I still am not going to speculate, because we were not there. I am just happy no one was hurt

Oh course not silly - if it "grabbed" as you put it, you'd skid. The cool think about antiskid is the "ANTI" part of skidding, which allows you to keep it under control no matter how hard you mash those brakes.

i agree.... and thats normal practice with a long runway....cuz you have plenty of room to work with....but the winds at the time were 20 degrees off at 5 knots...not nearly enough to call that a x-wind landing....even if the runway is long though and there is snow on the runway.....i think its better to get the reversers out first...even in a xwind...if you hold the correction in....and feed it out as you slow...use small corrections on steering...it works out pretty well. i dunno...ive never gotten on the brakes first on a snowy/contaminated runway....

no, actually it doesn't.

anti-skid is the same thing as anti-lock brakes in cars. it keeps the wheels from locking when you go ham-fisting the brakes. if the wheels spin, then you can control. once they lock up, you have no control over them. it does nothing to keep you from being pushed off the side of a runway due to winds and slick runway surfaces.

and next time you're preflighting, look at the tread in the tires. notice the difference in tread pattern between them and car tires. A/C tires are designed to go straight, and provide grip going straight. they are not very good when cornering or with side loads, unlike car tires, which are designed for that.

No one has been commenting on this part:

"The US Airways Express jet had touched down about 1,000 to 1,200 feet from the threshold of the 7,166-foot runway"

Thats called the touchdown zone buddy, those big white blocks 1000 feet down the runway that you aim for, you're supposed to touchdown around there, hence the name. What were they supposed to do? Put it on the numbers?

We also know that since AWAC requires 500 ttl and 125-me, it wasn't a "low timer" pilot either......NTSB will release all the facts soon.....

Here's the NTSB Preliminary report!!!

On December 16, 2007, at 1648 eastern standard time, a Bombardier CRJ-200 (CL600-2B19), registration N470ZW, operated by Air Wisconsin as flight 758A, departed the runway after a hard landing at the Theodore Francis Greene State Airport, Providence, RI. The flight was a regularly scheduled passenger flight which departed Philadelphia at 1600 EST. The 3 crew members and 31 passengers were not injured, and exited the airplane via the normal airstair door. Initial information indicates that the airplane touched down hard at approximately 1000-1200 feet from the threshold of runway 5. The airplane porpoised after touchdown and exited the left side of the runway. Fiberglass parts consistent with the main gear door were found nearby broken runway edge lights about 2500 feet from the threshold. At approximately 3000 feet from the threshold the left main gear entered the snow and grass area, and by 3200 feet, both main gear had exited the runway. The airplane came to a stop on a magnetic heading of approximately 320 degrees at about 3700 feet from the threshold. Runway 5 is 7,166 feet long by 150 feet wide, and is a CAT II instrument runway.

The left main gear collapsed, the drag brace or trunnion was seen fractured, and the wheel punctured the flap and left upper wing skin. Wing tip damage was also observed. There was no fuel spill.

Weather conditions were reported as wind 050 at 3 knots, overcast 300 feet, visibility 1 ½ miles in light rain and mist, temperature 3, dewpoint 2, barometric pressure 29.87 and pressure falling rapidly. Approximately 4 minutes prior to the accident, an arriving B737 reported braking action good. The runway condition was reported as wet at the time of the event.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X01939&key=1

I was on an Air Wisky flight 2 months ago. The Copilot was flying and during landing reduced power to idle over the approach lights. I have 2000 hours of CRJ time and relise early power reduction is needed. This was just to early. The landing that followed was incredably scary. On impact the window shades closed and a medal bracket dislodged from the foward overhead bin.
The next leg was another AW flight, same Copilot, and the landing had nearly the same outcome. The power was reduced early the sink rate increased dramatically, the only thing that saved us was an abrupt pull up resulting in balloning and porposing (think 15 hour pilot doing short field landings).

Should I have spoke up? Maybe made a report to the FAA?

I understand no one has great landings everytime. I would think that if you pull the power early and you almost wreck the airplane, maybe just maybe next time you would think twice.

You're joking right?

Dude (yeah I just said dude) anyhow next time you go to the sim for a PC/PT ask the instructor/ck airman to give you a 5kt xwind with braking as NIL and a snowy runway. Then when you land spool those bad boy t-reversers all the way up (both of e'm) and see what happens. Then you will understand what SLICE (and your ops manual) is getting at. On the other hand I have said nothing about differential t-reversing.

I wasn't speaking of the conditions specific to this case. Technique only but I'll go with what's worked for me in the past.

I wish I were, but under "today's standards", AWAC flight times are not considered "low timers"..........I just posted where ASA has "no mins" (as their website indicates), if you passed a CRJ Course......and let's don't forget the other regionals that will hire at or around 250-ttl time.....

So saying that a new hire at AWAC has "double" the total time (and probably 4-times as much multi-engine time), as most new hires at other carriers, again in "today's hirining standards" makes him/her an experienced airline pilot......like it or not, but it's the truth!

Yep they put 'er down exactly where they should have...not an inch less! Great job in that respect...

Since when do hiring standards make someone an experienced pilot?

You can try and polish a turd, but it'll always be a turd regardless of the hiring era...I don't care what they're hiring with these days with regard to the definition of low time. If you are at or around that experience level, you're still a low time pilot and even more dangerous if you don't believe so.