Legacy vs. Regional QOL?
12-26-2007, 11:23 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
Originally Posted by Nealman1
I always read about people complaining about QOL at the regional level. Other than the obvious things like pay, management, what makes QOL at a Legacy carrier sooo much better. Is it the lines? the overnighters? I would think that once someone was in the left seat for a few years at a regional, and built some seniority, QOL would not be that bad. Obviously the first few years are rough, but that's with any job in any industry.
Originally Posted by waflyboy
Very nicely put.
To the original poster: Also consider rising fuel prices, a weakening dollar and the US economy showing signs of slowed growth. It's probably not a terrific time to be at the bottom of a seniority list, especially one that historically has been highly exposed to furlough. (ie "Legacy" carriers)
To the original poster: Also consider rising fuel prices, a weakening dollar and the US economy showing signs of slowed growth. It's probably not a terrific time to be at the bottom of a seniority list, especially one that historically has been highly exposed to furlough. (ie "Legacy" carriers)
Originally Posted by de727ups
People say their worst day at a legacy was better than their best day at a regional. I can see that. That was my thinking as I worked my way up. And that's how I see things now.
I guess a lot depends on your situation, but that's how I saw it.
I guess a lot depends on your situation, but that's how I saw it.
12-27-2007, 03:35 AM
#12
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,795
Nice to see you are so tolerant of other people Viking. Like it or not, the major airline "career" is not what it was in the late 1990s. For a lot of people the decision to continue down that path is not as simple as it once was.
If you had told me in 2001 that I would not accept recall to US Airways when it came I would have told you to get a drug test. Times change. Lower compensation, fewer duty rigs, decimated retirement, more expensive healthcare, age 65...
It just isn't what it once was. I would praise this guy for making certain it's what he wants before he puts his family in financially dire straits (first year pay) for a year to do it.
If you had told me in 2001 that I would not accept recall to US Airways when it came I would have told you to get a drug test. Times change. Lower compensation, fewer duty rigs, decimated retirement, more expensive healthcare, age 65...
It just isn't what it once was. I would praise this guy for making certain it's what he wants before he puts his family in financially dire straits (first year pay) for a year to do it.
12-27-2007, 11:07 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: E170/175 CA
Posts: 334
Reasons why a career at a regional is not as bad as you've heard:
Most every regional jet operator has a payscale that will top 100k a year, and most people who are making 80ish an hour can actually crack that six figure barrier when the deadheads and other soft money is added in. Also, as a more senior pilot you will likely have the option of being a check airmen, which can add a good 15k a yaer to your income (more or less depending on how much time you spend doing check work. ADVICE: Skip or do not stay at the regionals such as Colgan where you will never see good pay. A lot can happen, and you could end up being a regional guy for 10-15 years depsite your time and desire to move up.
Many regionals have at least a few outstation bases. While the outstation schedules are often early start/late finishes, these bases cost far less to live in compared to hub and mainline bases. Your money will carry you further in IND, CMH, TYS, etc than it will in LGA, DCA, BOS. Who cares what the W2 says when you still have a 4 bedroom house with two nice cars in the driveway.
Your seniority can rise rapidly within a regional. At 27, I am in the top 1/3 of my company's seniority. I just got 5 weeks of vacation for next year, I am flying the best paying aircraft in our fleet, I can hold a line at most every base, and I can commute without needing a crashpad. I would not see that kind of seniority again for 20+ years if I went to a major.
The legacy carriers do not pay exceptionally well anymore. Perhaps new contracts will bring mainline pilots a raise, but they are finding themselves doing more and more long-haul and international flying. That constant time-zone crossing stuff will shave a few years off the life expectancy! Internatinal travel is fun, but I would rather see Paris with my family on my days off than with some galley hags. If I have an emergency at home, my regional job keeps me close enough to home to do some good. Finding out your elderly parent fell or had a heart attack when you are in Hong Kong is not worth the extra money (which isn't much greater than the captain pay I would be holding at my regional anyhow).
I may move on one day, but not now given the rewards that await me (years of reserve in a base far from home where I can't afford to live well for five days a week while dreading furlough). I would certainly jump at a job with UPS or Fedex, where the huge income potential and other factors offset the loss of seniority and QOL fo a while.
Most every regional jet operator has a payscale that will top 100k a year, and most people who are making 80ish an hour can actually crack that six figure barrier when the deadheads and other soft money is added in. Also, as a more senior pilot you will likely have the option of being a check airmen, which can add a good 15k a yaer to your income (more or less depending on how much time you spend doing check work. ADVICE: Skip or do not stay at the regionals such as Colgan where you will never see good pay. A lot can happen, and you could end up being a regional guy for 10-15 years depsite your time and desire to move up.
Many regionals have at least a few outstation bases. While the outstation schedules are often early start/late finishes, these bases cost far less to live in compared to hub and mainline bases. Your money will carry you further in IND, CMH, TYS, etc than it will in LGA, DCA, BOS. Who cares what the W2 says when you still have a 4 bedroom house with two nice cars in the driveway.
Your seniority can rise rapidly within a regional. At 27, I am in the top 1/3 of my company's seniority. I just got 5 weeks of vacation for next year, I am flying the best paying aircraft in our fleet, I can hold a line at most every base, and I can commute without needing a crashpad. I would not see that kind of seniority again for 20+ years if I went to a major.
The legacy carriers do not pay exceptionally well anymore. Perhaps new contracts will bring mainline pilots a raise, but they are finding themselves doing more and more long-haul and international flying. That constant time-zone crossing stuff will shave a few years off the life expectancy! Internatinal travel is fun, but I would rather see Paris with my family on my days off than with some galley hags. If I have an emergency at home, my regional job keeps me close enough to home to do some good. Finding out your elderly parent fell or had a heart attack when you are in Hong Kong is not worth the extra money (which isn't much greater than the captain pay I would be holding at my regional anyhow).
I may move on one day, but not now given the rewards that await me (years of reserve in a base far from home where I can't afford to live well for five days a week while dreading furlough). I would certainly jump at a job with UPS or Fedex, where the huge income potential and other factors offset the loss of seniority and QOL fo a while.
12-27-2007, 04:15 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan
Nice to see you are so tolerant of other people Viking. Like it or not, the major airline "career" is not what it was in the late 1990s. For a lot of people the decision to continue down that path is not as simple as it once was.
It just isn't what it once was.
It just isn't what it once was.
12-27-2007, 04:52 PM
#16
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
I'll buck the trend on this board and argue in favor of a Legacy career.
I was a happy regional lifer until my no name, no brand, regional was bought and our assets were transferred to non union replacement pilots.
The problem you see is that a "regional" is acutally a "small jet lift provider" that has no marketing, tickets, or brand. The only virtue and distinction of the SJLP is a low bid, which is typically based on the lower expectations of its labor, specifically its' pilots.
In the absence of scope to protect a career, seniority is meaningless. A SJLP with a senior workforce is a SJLP about to be replaced by a newer, shiny, version of itself using pilots with little longevity and reduced labor expenses.
In the future, economics will push airlines towards aircraft with lower seat mile costs. These are going to be 100 seat and larger jets which are not, and will not, be outsourced. An MD88 has lower seat mile costs than a CRJ700/900. As soon as the route justifies the larger equipment it will be upgauged. As soon as there is a new dreamliner technology 100 to 150 seat jet, game over. (the majors are just avoiding investing in outdated technology and letting their contractors hold the bag, for now)
The regionals are a great place to get experience and most pilots will transition to a legacy, or LCC. But my bet is that economic forces are swinging hard against the niche filled by small jet lift providers.
I'm not intending any disrespect for SJLP pilots, they do the same flying. I'm just expressing my concern that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is about to deal a slap.
I was a happy regional lifer until my no name, no brand, regional was bought and our assets were transferred to non union replacement pilots.
The problem you see is that a "regional" is acutally a "small jet lift provider" that has no marketing, tickets, or brand. The only virtue and distinction of the SJLP is a low bid, which is typically based on the lower expectations of its labor, specifically its' pilots.
In the absence of scope to protect a career, seniority is meaningless. A SJLP with a senior workforce is a SJLP about to be replaced by a newer, shiny, version of itself using pilots with little longevity and reduced labor expenses.
In the future, economics will push airlines towards aircraft with lower seat mile costs. These are going to be 100 seat and larger jets which are not, and will not, be outsourced. An MD88 has lower seat mile costs than a CRJ700/900. As soon as the route justifies the larger equipment it will be upgauged. As soon as there is a new dreamliner technology 100 to 150 seat jet, game over. (the majors are just avoiding investing in outdated technology and letting their contractors hold the bag, for now)
The regionals are a great place to get experience and most pilots will transition to a legacy, or LCC. But my bet is that economic forces are swinging hard against the niche filled by small jet lift providers.
I'm not intending any disrespect for SJLP pilots, they do the same flying. I'm just expressing my concern that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is about to deal a slap.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 12-27-2007 at 04:58 PM.
12-27-2007, 05:18 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
...
I'm not intending any disrespect for SJLP pilots, they do the same flying. I'm just expressing my concern that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is about to deal a slap.
I'm not intending any disrespect for SJLP pilots, they do the same flying. I'm just expressing my concern that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is about to deal a slap.
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