Its hard to take any one seriously with a name like "Sacastics....." but I'll bite.
Most senior pilots do things besides fly airplanes, unlike many junior pilots, that, due to economics, can barely afford to house and feed themselves, let alone have a girlfriend.
As we have interests and obligations outside the cockpit, besides mentoring junior pukes who think they are, (in no particular order) 1. better sticks 2. smarter 3. better looking 4. healthier (so we should medical out and they can move up a number). These pilots also believe, (in no particular order) 1. Fo's are under paid, 2. capts are over paid. 3. Too much emphasis is placed on retirement issues.
Of course, the senior pilots don't care about fewer pilot jobs, we're just looking for the guy's senior to us to retire or medical out

WOW, six whole years in the "biz". Then I should take everything you say as the gospel. I mean with six whole years of airline experience under your belt and all.

What airline do you work for where you are in the top 20% seniority wise and are a Captain that does hiring and training? They must pump pilots out of that place like drinks dispensed out of a coke machine.


Sorry to come across as such an A-hole, but it is hard to listen to someone “lay it out” like you have and talk as though you have this vast amount of experience and knowledge of the airline industry when you really haven't been in the "biz" that long. Just to clarify here, I'm not an "old timer" either. I WAS in the "biz" for about 9 years and still considered myself a new comer when put into perspective with the length of service of many of the pilots in the industry.

The pessimism in these forums is suffocating. How about a little optimism: Here I'll start you guys out with a couple reasons to be optimistic:

1. the baby boomers are nearing retirement age. When the baby boomers start peeling off the industry is going to need more pilots. This creates a demand, which gives the hirees more options on where to go. Economics dictates that the hirees can afford to be pickier which drive salaries and benefits upward.

2. The airline industry is a necessary one. People aren't going to stop flying in the near future. Often industries like airlines act in a cyclical nature. Even without the baby boomers retiring, and if the airlines keep lowering salaries, the hiring pool with eventually catch on. Eventually fewer hirees will apply and seek other jobs (like jobs they can actually live off of). This will create a demand for pilots, which will force airlines to offer greater compensation and benefits.

Now- these are just two ways the industry can go- I'm not saying either of these will definately happen, but the airline industry is not the only industry in the entire country to have a low point. Right now, the industry is overdue for a change.

My point? Pilots are not making as much as they used to, and its easy to point fingers at new hires for accepting lower pay as the reason. But that is just silly! To all those grumpy captains: If you were offered a chance at age 21 or 22 and with low hours to fly for a regional airline, would you say "no, I don't want that job because I don't have the experience and I'm going to hold out in order to pressure the airline to offer more money". If you did say that, you would be a fool ESPECIALLY because advancement is based purely on seniority and because the airlines would just hire some other low-hour pilot to take your place. By propogating this finger pointing (even if in the form of a "joke") you are just spreading negativity and deviding pilots against eachother. My solution: Be optimistic, spread constructive criticism instead of namecalling and immaturity.

Oh one more thing: Remember why you started flying in the first place. When I become an atty, I'll likely start out making close to 100G a year, but trust me, being an atty and working 12 hour days is not nearly as fun and exciting as flying. Sorry if i'm being preachy- its not my intention, I just find my self utterly deppressed about the content of these posts, and Id love to see more positive posts in the future! Good luck guys!

I apologize. I also can't seem to find the link at US News and World Report that I saw. However here are three others, including what out goverment thinks of our profession (the Forbes info is from 2002):

http://www.jist.com/bestlists/bestpaying.htm

http://www.forbes.com/home/2002/09/03/0903jobpay.html

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm

No offense taken. I didn't mean to come across as someone with 30 years experience. My background is 10 years as a senior manager and director for large companies, five years as a business process consultant (mostly back into those companies - retail and communications technology) and now with the airline. I've been lucky. My airline grown quickly in the past several years.

Pilotwifey - There's one big (among other) differences between this career and other careers, such as being an attorney. When we lose our job, for what ever reason, we have to start over from the bottom. There are no lateral transfers. If you are a Captain for airline A and it folds (say ACA/Independance), if you choose to continue to fly and are lucky enough to get another position, you start at the bottom of the seniority list, a junior FO on reserve making junior FO pay. We don't have the option of climbing the pay and position latter by changing companies, or protecting our income by jumping ship to a healthier company.

Best of luck to you in your career as an attorney. I have two in the family in private practice. Neither has ever made $100k net in their lives. After business and office expenses it's closer to $70 - 80K.

Yeah- that is a problem- that's one of the reasons I think that the whole seniority thing is so ridiculous. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that because of safety concerns, pilot advancement must be based on seniority. But there must be a way to determine advancement through skill without affecting safety decisions. For example, implementing a system of looking at both time and experienced combined with placement testing may work, without using direct supervision. This kind of competition could allow pilots to make lateral moves in the industry, forcing the airlines to offer them something more to stay. The whole industry is probably overdue for a major overhaul.

Also- that 100 K is if i decide to work for one of the big firms in Florida, of course, if i decide to work at a medium sized firm, or go into business for myself, starting pay is more like 50-75 K. It depends on if I want to be a slave for my job or not. I'm very interested in the aviation industry, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about it. One thing I can say about the aviation industry, is that pilots definately have a passion for their careers that you don't see as much in the legal profession. Perhaps thats why these forums can get so heated, and sometimes downright nasty!

I would agree with you that there are pilots with 5000 hours who are poor pilots, and some straight out of flight school that are sharp. Yet many of these same individuals who are sharp in the aircraft and know the systems, also lack a basic amount of respect for the field they are entering and the dangers it entails to not just them, but their passengers. I have seen some of these young pilots turn into "wonder captains", pilots who upgrade immediately after their 23rd birthday. They view flying an RJ as a sport or a game. The barber pole is a goal, not a limit. De-icing the aircraft is optional (in spite of the rash of accidents with the CL-65 series). Flying is just one big joke.
In the past most of these pilots were weeded out before they got their hands on jets or aircraft carrying more than 19 passenger. Mother fate does not tolerate fools, and these types were either killed, scared straight, or scared out of flying. Now, they are going straight to the regionals, no weeding out process.
With the downward spiral on wages and benefits in the regionals, the pilots who are wealthy, those who live off their parents, and/or those with out families are the only ones who will be left at the regionals. We got lucky with Pinnacle- there were no passengers. Next time I fear we will not be so lucky.

If you stopped here, before reading this tomb, you'd could almost guess what a sim instructor/ training captain will be saying about "line pilots".



More of the babble of, "airline pilots are disconnected from reality......... BS"
it continues on, but you've heard it before


No hint of profiling here Sure some pilots do have multiple wives, clearly not unique in current society; some pilots do whine about their lot, everywhere we find people who complain about how much they make, how broke they are, how they need more. So what?? Aren't pilots entitled to be human too??


Where, my friend do you live?? If your wife really makes only 80k as a doctor than, you must live in the most rural part of a rural state, or she needs to ask about a raise.

More dribble I could address, but frankly, why bother. This sim/instructor/mgt pilot thinks he's got a great deal at his regional, feels he's already over paid and under worked, and, by god, others making any more are grossly over paid.

And this sums it up. No other profession, I'm aware of, do so many claim to work so little, feel they are so over paid, and so envious of those who make more, that they root for the top of their chosen profession to fall to their level.
I'm glad you only work, "a few hours a day" because the rest of us are pulling the slack doing 10 to 16 hours days so you can enjoy your easy job.

I guess you didn't read my last post on this topic. If you think merit based advancement is the way to go, convince your husband to look toward corporate aviation as a career. It has all you suggest, with great equipment and (sometimes ) great pay. Good luck!

frighteningly true because everyone is willing to work for less from pilots all the way down to cleaners. At the same time management never takes responsibility for running a company poorly.