I'm still pushing for an agreement between the union and the airline to give the low-time guys more flying. Time is running short but I'm not going to sit on my arse and watch my dream fade away without a fight.

3 months left for this to happen (figure a month buffer to get the ATP squared away). I personally am not counting on it.

The bummer of this is that over the past several months - when it would have helped low-time pilots the most - scheduling stuck by existing rules with seemingly little ability to bend to help the situation out. Allowing line holders to drop time (i.e. below guarantee) and have RSV's pick it up would work. There were plenty of line holders willing to do so. I tried multiple times when I was new on the line and was denied.

I somehow lucked out on the Beech and got based in a good domicile as a new hire and flew a lot on RSV. My classmates at outstations did not do as well. One ended up quitting, after sitting at an outstation flying 50-60 hrs in 4 months after IOE, presumably owing Lakes the $ for the training contract.

Regarding hiring folks.. IMO the pay is the driving issue there. It is a good time for the airline to contract (if that is where it is headed). If they want or are able to expand, the lack of labor will be a hindrance, and free-market forces will likely push the pay issue better than the union has. I forsee Lakes' pay continuing to be sub-standard as long as a quick upgrade is possible. Let's face it, going to Lakes is a winner on opportunity cost... and that is worth something.

Thoughts:

1) Great Lakes is shriking. Not closing up shop, it's the cockroach of the industry, Voss will find a way to screw pilots enough to make money.

2) Current contract ALMOST guarantees there will be no hiring, see remaining thoughts for more details. This works because of #1, they need less pilots for the limited flying they will be doing in forseeable future.

3) There will be no new contract. Just an opinion? Yes. But hey, what are annonymous internet forums for.....well rumors too I guess. Pilots with 1500 Hours will not have a hard time making choice between Lakes and (insert 'my regional is better than your regional' here) when they look at pay and QOL seeing that both airlines have same minimums.

4) There WILL be pilots furloughed because of the ATP requirement, it will be a very small number, but I dont judge the actions of a company as good or bad based on the number of pilots they want to appease. It's wrong if even one guy loses his job because the shriking lines of the company prevent low-time FOs from obtaining their ATP in time.

5) The elphant in the room is the TRAINING CONTRACT. For those guys facing a difficult decision in the next few months this is what it's all about. Will Lakes force these pilots to pay $7500 (not prorated) and not work out a deal with them to get the required hours in time? Will they, on purpose, keep guys on RSV with as little as 6 hours a month to make a buck? (Ok the last part is a stretch but figured it fit on an internet forum)

6) Lastly, will upgrade matter? The MILLION dollar question for all regional pilots looking where their carreer is going. Will upgrade time on a Beech and the TPIC in a nonjet, non-FMS aircraft actually get you hired at a major over RJ jockies? Or with this impending pilot shortage (hahaahaha sorry I actually laughed IRL when I wrote that) will TPIC not mean much compaired to JET PIC? Today, March 16th 2013, TPIC still matters, but will it in two years looking to move on to majors?


7) Sorry for spelling, wrote on phone.

We're already seeing the Turbine PIC requirement vanishing from hiring mins. In fact, I think more jet FOs have been hired to VX, AirWays, JetBlue, Spirit ect. Compared to their left seat counterparts

No dog in this fight, and I believe when one signs a contract, he should be willing to abide by the terms of agreement. However...

How does or would the company handle the training contract if a pilot were to lose his medical through no fault of his own (not due to a DUI for example)?

If the company forgives the loan in those cases, it might be argued that if the guy could ONLY HOLD reserve, picked up extra days, and STILL did not get the hours, maybe the contract would be forgiven as well.

It seems fair to me that if the company hires someone with 1000 hours eight months from the deadline on the assumption he would get the remaining 500 while working as an employee and he COULD NOT get them, the company bears some of responsibility.

I feel like responding to these points.. so here shall be my thoughts:

1) Completely agree. Businesses will try to survive until their last breath, normally.

2) Realistically, all we're "shrinking" right now is only the town of Ely, NV. When ABQ closed the cities served were moved to flying done by other domiciles. Most the towns flown from Vegas will still receive service, except Ely. So I'm not sure how many pilots they want to "shrink" right now.

3) I can't help but get the feeling that mandatory retirement will hit me before the new contract comes down. I'm only 22 right now. Its a bit of a joke, but by living with that expectation, then there can only be good surprises I suppose.

4) I think the company really doesn't care who does or does not get their ATP. I think they view it as the responsibility of each pilot. I feel that they think their current hiring issues are merely a glitch and soon they'll be able to hire 15 a month like they used to. I think when FO's do get furloughed, it will do damage to this company. I also think they will not be able to hire enough to continue operations at normal capacity. I guess come August, we'll see which scenario pans out.

5) I believe getting the ATP is a furlough event, not a termination event. The 3 ways to quit without paying the $7,500 are a) loss of life, b) loss of medical, c) company folding. If furloughed, your 15 months hits a pause button until you are offered recall (which you must accept). If one is furloughed for a really long time (not sure the limit, 48 mos.?) then they do not have to pay or accept recall if they do not want to. This means the company will gain nothing by holding pilots under 1500. It would probably result in a furlough, "call us when you meet atp mins", and then recall people who will then either come back or pay.

6) I cannot attest to Turboprop PIC vs. FMS SIC. I figure they are both viewed as equal. But in the end I guess it all comes down to who is sitting opposite to you at the interview table. From all I gather currently, it would seem that both time sets are a requirement before employment at a major. With some exceptions, of course.

7) It's all good, mistakes happen. I apologise as well for all of mine, but they are just because I'm illerate.

So one can go from 172 CFI to Airbus right seat? Just because they drop the requirement, to expand their application pool, does not mean you aren't still expected to have it.

HIIIII-YAH!

KARATE CHOP!

A little Bruzer to make everyone's day!

To expand a little on item number 6- I have said for a while now that Beech 1900 PIC time is not what it used to be. Back 15+ years ago, if you were lucky, your 1000 PIC time could get you on with the likes of Fedex, United, Continental etc.., but even then many guys got their PIC time and went on to Air Wisconsin before getting on with United. If you look at today though (keeping in mind the last 10 years have been pretty stagnant) that same time just won't get you as far as guys with PIC time on E175s and CRJs. Unless your dad flies for the company or is the CEO of a major, good luck. I am slowly realizing the best way to get from the left seat of a 1900 to a major is via a jet. Unless your a Line Check Airman/DE with Lakes, that really seems to be your only option, either by another regional, or the likes of Allegiant or Spirit. I know of a few guys who have gone to a jet regional from lakes and within a year have been picked up with US Airways. I'm not gonna lie, it scares the crap out of me, knowing I have been at this place for almost 5 years, only to have to back to flying a CRJ :rolleyes:

Sorry for the spelling, my grammar sucks!!

Epic zombie thread, batman...Good to "see" you Mr. C.

I've thought about this for the past week or so, and honestly, I think Beech 1900 TPIC time is the same as it always has been. You note that it took luck 15+ years ago to make the "big jump" to FDX, UAL, or CAL, and that many had to go to ZW. It still takes a high degree of luck to make that jump. I don't think that's changed much.

To me this points to the combination of computers and people that will be looking at your resume when you apply anywhere. In today's ultra-competitive pilot career market (which is much better than it was 3-4 years ago btw), you need quite a few "points." Check airman, sim instructor, jet time, community leadership...nearly all of these are ways that you can stand out as a turboprop captain, with no jet time required. In fact, I tend to agree that if you're going to be getting a call to interview anytime soon at a major, those things WILL be on your resume. If none of those are possible (and in some cases it isn't), then jet time will help. Why is it that way?

In my opinion, it's that way again due to the competitiveness of the career. Once you reach a large number of PIC or greater in the 1900 at GLA, you need another mountain to climb to prevent stagnation (the bullet points mentioned above, EMB transition, mgmt position, jet time, etc). If you don't climb those mountains (or don't have the opportunity to do so), someone else is out there at airline x or the corporate world climbing them, adding points to their resume that you don't have, and making it that much tougher for you to get that call...

Just my speculation. Best of luck with your career move Mr. 06A6! Glad we got to fly together in the mighty Beech for the "Greatest Little Airline."

What's the latest news on their in/ability to fill classes? Not turning out to be a huge problem?

The mass exodus has begun. ZK can't hire and people are leaving as fast as they can. The slow death is occurring. They are just right seating captains, but at some point the stop gap will cease to work.

Well the one guy I keep up with said he was definitely leaving soon, probably gone by now, but I think his reasoning was that he couldn't pass his upgrade training. I would be curious how many people are showing up for the new hire classes these days.

I believe the number is four new hires so far this year. Four. We had more than four resign just last week.

I personally know of more than that. Surely the number is much higher.

No regionals are having trouble filling classes. I keep hearing that and it's not true.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

I tend to agree from what I know, read, and hear there is no pilot shortage at the regionals yet, and people are applying in same numbers as before. But I also hear that classes are not being filled like at GLA, Eagle, XJT, PDT, and a few others. Obviously HR departments for various reasons are not grabbing these guys and training them to fly airliners. I know in my case I have attended a number of airline interviews and received not a single offer despite some admittedly good interviews. I may not be a pilot rock star, but I can be trained to fly these airplanes safely, and in my view HR is the problem. Perhaps there has been a reduction in pilot supply HR does not get and they still think they can skim off the rock stars.

I will say I have run into quite a few that have had interviews at different regionals and been turned down. Almost all of these guys are pretty sharp and I myself wonder why the regionals aren't picking them up. I would think they would be on their knees thanking whoever they worship that anybody wants to work for these wages and get kicked in the face on a daily basis...did I say that out loud?

You do have a valid point as ZK is not a regional airline. They might call themselves a regional, but they're not. It's just a paid internship with credits earned towards a Master's degree in aviating...or so I've heard.

Ok Mr. Moderator, you hame mentioned most of the regionals hiring. If they didn't have a problem filling classes then why is it that RAH can't staff over 50% of the Q400 they were awarded a year ago. Someone is paying leases on these airplanes while they sit in the desert.

You have attended a number, meaning you have attended various of interviews but you are not being offered a job. Sorry pal but there is something wrong with you or you have so much time that they don't think you will be there long enough for ROI. You mentioned that you can be trained to fly these airplanes safely and I am not sure if you are implying that your flying has some areas that require work before you can attend 121 training.

I misspoke...I counted four new hires on the seniority list going back about four months.

New hires this year? We had quite a few since January, but since about April has slowed to one or two a month showing up for class.

My apologies for the misinformation.

While your points may be valid, go easy! The pilot on pilot violence!:D

I didn't say they were able to fill those classes, I said I am pretty sure they are not really trying to or are totally ineffective at the task. I have ample evidence there is currently no pilot shortage. Why would they let them sit idle? I have no real clue. Incompetence probably. They sure aren't trying very hard to get me in any of them, and they were definitely incompetent at my interview. I also know lots of other pilots who are having the same issues. We apply, we interview, we go home.

It might be my age is a bit high and they are profiling a bit maybe, no 121 or military background and no turbine time. But more than those things I think it is incompetence in their HR departments. In connection with the latter, I had one one of them tell me they had not received my PRIA forms when I indeed turned all of them them in. Another said that I had put sim hours into my total time; another said I had no pilot license at all. All baloney, totally ridiculous HR incompetence, what can I say. You can't do their job for them if they are going to be that dense.

Meant what I said. Perfectly trainable as-is. I am solid pilot material and have been for the last ten years. I have also about had enough of this punishing little industry. You seem to want to stick it on me on this thread and the Eagle thread that I can't get hired by a regional, but I do not buy it. Sorry, I just don't, and I do not buy that all these other folks I see going home are that bad either.

For the month of July, Great Lakes has ten open FO lines. 8 in DEN and two in other bases. In the DEN base (our largest) we have 27 FOs and 32 Lines. We have a zero reserves and a thousand+ hours of open FO time.

There may not be a pilot shortage elsewhere, but there sure is one here

I realize that my math above does not make much sense. Great Lakes has less than the 27 FOs in DEN that I said. I was looking at last months seniority list that does not include a few who have left and one who was, in my opinion, wrongfully terminated.

The 8 open lines and zero reserves in DEN is correct. However we do have a good number of CAs on RSV that will pretty much only fly in the right seat for the time being

Do they still get CA pay when they sit right seat?

yes we still get CA pay, but that is not helping us get the out of Lakes

The only way that I can see Great Lakes attracting enough pilots in the future is to hire street captains. Since the company is used to putting captains in the right seat, why not hire street captains and then throw them in the right seat most of the time. The only thing better than a one year upgrade time is no upgrade time!

Actually, I guess the new ATP rules will prevent flight instructors or anyone without prior 121 time from doing the street captain thing. Maybe Lakes will become a refuge for future furloughed regional pilots.. or not

Just don't do what some are doing and including that right seat time as PIC on a major resume/application. You can log it all you want but don't claim to be the PIC as defined by Part I.

They used to require 300 hours at Lakes before upgrade. The "street ca's" that have come through are old lakers who were furloughed from majors and needed a place to wait for recall.

I spoke with 3 FOs this morning. All had class dates at other regionals. Thats in addition to several others I have spoken with over the past couple of weeks.

The light at the end of the tunnel is a job with a good regional carrier. Make a career there or in 6-8 years move on to a major. It beats working for a living, if you don't believe it try working in an office 08:00 - 5:00 at a job you don't really like.

Is it true that 2 bros were parked due to lack of pilots?

Man that would be great! It would prove that there finally is a shortage of pilots that are willing to work for slave wages.... oh wait.

It's true they were parked, but the company didn't say lack of crews. Buuuut....I don't see any other reason.

I thought people went to great lakes because the "next stop" was Delta or Southwest??:confused:

Some people do. Most don't. Just like very other airline.:rolleyes:

Two Brasilias were parked, but not for lack of crews. One for heavy maintenance and the other is because the flying in ISN and DIK has significantly dropped off due to low loads because Expressjet and Skywest now operating those routes too. That's not to say that we aren't short either. One open FO line in ISN and more and more FOs leaving every week, its not looking pretty.

Although, I did hear that xjt and skw pax out of ISN and DIK are not happy with their new jet service that they tried so hard to get, so consequently our loads have been increasing.

Just curious, what kinds of complaints have you heard?

I heard every time one of the jets is oversold or cancels, those pax transfer over to Lakes.