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Great Lakes Pay
Is that payscale accurate, and if so is anything being done to bring it in line with other 19 seat under paid carriers?
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Unfortunately, the payscale on this website is accurate...rounded to the nearest dollar. Lakes pilots have been working without a contract for 5 years and counting...with the same pay. The pilot group, which is represented by the Teamsters, is currently attempting to be released from mediation. They are also soliciting other representation, however, I don't believe that ALPA is an option, so I don't know who else that leaves.
One of the major problems IMO is the general apathy of the pilot group. Most are hired with low time, and figure they will only stay until they get 1,000 PIC...which only takes about 3 years. The most senior pilot on the seniority list probably has only been with the company for about 6 years, and even they feel they have been there a couple of years too long. This revolving door is a management's dream as far as contract negotiations are concerned. Fuel prices combined with the already thin profit margins associated with providing Essential Air Service flying have only hurt the cause for the pilots. Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? I don't think so. |
Great Lakes
I have been researching this company. I know the pay is the worst in the industry, but I want to move to DEN, and don't have enough time for Skywest. I have a uncle that lives in DEN, that has a painting business and have been told I could work with him for extra $$. I was wondering how long the upgrade time is. I would assume it would be fairly low. ATP MINS? Also, I am wondering how the company is as a whole. I know there are a few people that work for Great Lakes that post so please chime in or pm me.
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Are you an instructor? I would keep doing that for a while and try to get some multi time before I went to Great Lakes. I instructed for a little over a year and I'm glad I did it.
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Ive been with Lakes for 2 years and counting.
Not a pilot with the company, but I can comment on upgrade times in that I've seen newhire FO's reach CA in 10-14 months. And these were guys that were hired with around 300TT. Id say about 90% of the pilots are all good people to work with. Mostly a younger more laid back crowd, early 20's to early 30's agewise. Of course there are a few bad apples, but every airline has those. The company itself? Well...there are many things Im not pleased with, but I'll save those comments for private discussion if you're still interested. So far as I can see, the two biggest pluses that Lakes has going for it from a pilot perspective are 1) the people you'll fly with. 2) Fast upgrades. You don't come here to make a life long career out of it or become wealthy, thats for sure. A lot of guys say the class/training is pretty tough. |
I've heard the initial training is very tough - but keep in mind it's going to be a kick in the pants your first time pretty much anywhere you go. It would probably be a great experience for you to fly for them - upgrade quick - get 1000 TPIC and move on to another regional, or even mainline. Lots of Great Lakes guys all over the place - and you can take comfort in knowing that pretty much anywhere you go will be better!
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Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
(Post 295720)
I've heard the initial training is very tough
I believe it is. I know a few guys that work for Lakes and they say that the company will train you to be a captain because you would move to the left seat once you have the time. I will be starting at Lakes within a couple of weeks (not flying). I heard that a lot of low timers get in as ramp agents, meet someone who would walking their resume, and get hired as FO’s within a few months. For the FO position, lakes states “Recommendation from current staff pilot weighed heavily.” Also, keep in mind that they don’t pay you during training. |
Originally Posted by wmarti31
(Post 295754)
Also, keep in mind that they don’t pay you during training.
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Is Lakes still planning on opening a base in MKE to take over Skyway's EAS routes, and if so when is that scheduled to happen?
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Have you thought about going to Mesa?!?!! ;)
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Originally Posted by AZFlyer
(Post 295689)
I can comment on upgrade times in that I've seen newhire FO's reach CA in 10-14 months. And these were guys that were hired with around 300TT.
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 295791)
I don't believe that's even legally possible. Granted I meet all the requirements for CA upgrade so I'm not counting pennies here but don't you still need 2500hrs to hold the ATP and be CA for any 121 operator?
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Outlaw is correct.
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Yea, it's 1500 total, plus the other time reqs like XC time, 250 pic min (of which you can use some SIC time toward) etc. Most crews are getting about 100 plus hours a month, and close to the 1200 per year (part 135 rules) so it does seem like 10-14 months is accurate.
Overall, I've enjoyed my 5 years. 3/4 of it has been in the training dept, so pay isn't as bad. The flying is fun, the machines are tanks (when they're not broke), and your instrument proficiency and knowledge will excel. Sounds like you may have an idea for extra income, so nice job on looking at all of your options. Good luck in your decision. |
Originally Posted by wmarti31
(Post 295754)
I believe it is. I know a few guys that work for Lakes and they say that the company will train you to be a captain because you would move to the left seat once you have the time. I will be starting at Lakes within a couple of weeks (not flying). I heard that a lot of low timers get in as ramp agents, meet someone who would walking their resume, and get hired as FO’s within a few months. For the FO position, lakes states “Recommendation from current staff pilot weighed heavily.” Also, keep in mind that they don’t pay you during training.
(also, a seemingly little known fact is that you will be paid during training if you are already a ZK employee. i.e. customer service agent to pilot. 40hrs of pay/week at whatever your wage was, I *believe*) |
Originally Posted by EMB120IP
(Post 295800)
Most crews are getting about 100 plus hours a month, and close to the 1200 per year (part 135 rules) so it does seem like 10-14 months is accurate.
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Lakes is 121, however operators with 19 or less seats may use 135 flight time regulations.
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Originally Posted by VTcharter
(Post 295900)
Lakes is 121, however operators with 19 or less seats may use 135 flight time regulations.
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Lakes was my first airline. From what I hear, not much has changed in the last 8 years.
Lakes was a lot of fun. The crews were great, the flying was challenging, and management treated us like dirt. That really pulls the employees together. You will be flying a B1900 in the mountains with no autopilot. Training has always been excessively (and needlessly) difficult compared to similar carriers, and at least when I was there, the instructors were more like drill sergeants than instructors. Maybe that's changed. Regardless, you will fly your butt off, upgrade quick, and hopefully get your butt out. One thing of note, many jet regionals like ASA have minimums similar to Lakes. ASA may suck, but it's still better in a CRJ at 350 than playing flight attendant in a B1900 with 10 deferrals and no autopilot. Oh and our FO pay is more than Lakes Captain pay. |
Originally Posted by VTcharter
(Post 295900)
Lakes is 121, however operators with 19 or less seats may use 135 flight time regulations.
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Originally Posted by maddog81
(Post 295765)
Is Lakes still planning on opening a base in MKE to take over Skyway's EAS routes, and if so when is that scheduled to happen?
It's been said before, but if you're at all concerned about your QOL for the next 3 years or so, Lakes is not the place to be. I came to Lakes feeling very gung-ho, but working your ass off for peanuts can get ugly fast, no matter what you're doing. The description John Pennekamp gave of the training department is as valid now as it was eight years ago. Washouts rates are high, and the training department isn't out to do you any favors. Still, I guess it's a lot better than making a captain fly into Telluride with an untrainable 300 hour wunderkind in the right seat. With us doing the PHX and STL flying out of DEN and with new "hubs" on the horizon, scheduling has reached new levels of creativity this winter. Even most of the senior pilots I know haven't seen things this bad. The sense of "togetherness" doesn't seem as strong as it has been in the past - attrition is lightning-fast and everyone is pretty much desperate to get the hell out of Dodge. Colinflyin, once you're holding a line at Lakes, I doubt you'll have much time for a side job. Oh, and 01WJ is right, all of the pilots are on 135 flight time rules whether they're on the Beech or the dark side. The big positives are the DEN base (if that's what you're after), getting flight time fast, and the fact that I can tally the number of seriously unpleasant people flying the line on one hand. If it wasn't for the amazing collection of borderline psychotics we have working here, this place would be unlivable. Make sure you do some real research before you make the move. If anyone's seriously interested, feel free to PM me for a more detailed impression of ZK. |
I've been considering making the move to Great Lakes to get some PIC time quickly. I just need my 1000 PIC for American or Delta.
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Well KiloAlpha, you wouldn't be the first to successfully make that move. Where are you coming from?
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I took a job at GoJets without doing much research.. now I'm tired of walking around STL and ORD looking at the ground
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Originally Posted by KiloAlpha
(Post 296211)
I took a job at GoJets without doing much research.. now I'm tired of walking around STL and ORD looking at the ground
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You could go to TSA, get into the EMB145 right off that bat, and the DEN STL commute isn't bad at all. Then if you really want to go to SkyWest it will be cake. Great Lakes is a good place to go to. You'll get respect for hand flying the 1900 in the soup.
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What kind of times do guys have when getting hired at Lakes?
I'd definately prefer to live in base, and DEN is a good choice. |
Originally Posted by soon2bfo
(Post 296218)
You could go to TSA, get into the EMB145 right off that bat, and the DEN STL commute isn't bad at all. Then if you really want to go to SkyWest it will be cake. Great Lakes is a good place to go to. You'll get respect for hand flying the 1900 in the soup.
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Originally Posted by thepotato232
(Post 296174)
Not going to happen. MKE was dropped before we were even supposed to pick up Vegas and Billings.
It's been said before, but if you're at all concerned about your QOL for the next 3 years or so, Lakes is not the place to be. I came to Lakes feeling very gung-ho, but working your ass off for peanuts can get ugly fast, no matter what you're doing. The description John Pennekamp gave of the training department is as valid now as it was eight years ago. Washouts rates are high, and the training department isn't out to do you any favors. Still, I guess it's a lot better than making a captain fly into Telluride with an untrainable 300 hour wunderkind in the right seat. With us doing the PHX and STL flying out of DEN and with new "hubs" on the horizon, scheduling has reached new levels of creativity this winter. Even most of the senior pilots I know haven't seen things this bad. The sense of "togetherness" doesn't seem as strong as it has been in the past - attrition is lightning-fast and everyone is pretty much desperate to get the hell out of Dodge. Colinflyin, once you're holding a line at Lakes, I doubt you'll have much time for a side job. Oh, and 01WJ is right, all of the pilots are on 135 flight time rules whether they're on the Beech or the dark side. The big positives are the DEN base (if that's what you're after), getting flight time fast, and the fact that I can tally the number of seriously unpleasant people flying the line on one hand. If it wasn't for the amazing collection of borderline psychotics we have working here, this place would be unlivable. Make sure you do some real research before you make the move. If anyone's seriously interested, feel free to PM me for a more detailed impression of ZK. |
Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
(Post 296252)
Isn't that funny how it works? Every guy on here will buy you a beer for flying the 1900 with no A/P in the soup, yet they'll poke and jab at a guy that does the same thing in an RJ...
KiloAlpha, Lakes could be a place for you to do your penance. As desperate as we are for captains, a guy with ATP mins and prior 121 experience will get upgrade class at his discretion. Passing upgrade is a whole other story. The only real preparation you get for upgrade is what you pick up on the line and the gouge you collect from people already going through. Besides, going from GoJets to Lakes has got to do some kind of irreparable damage to your soul (though I'd still call it a step up). cfii2007, people are getting hired here with little more than a comm/multi. Washout rates are high, so it's up to you to be as prepared as possible. A couple hours of pattern work in a 172 may not do the trick. In answer to your other question, Lakes was awarded EAS contracts connecting Visalia (CA), Merced (CA), and Ely (NV) to Las Vegas, picking up where Mesa/Air Midwest wants to leave. The current rumor is that the flying will be done by Brasilia crews starting in February. On the other hand, it took the guys in Cheyenne more than six months to get their **** together in STL, so the time table is really anyone's guess. In all likelihood, Vegas (like STL) won't be a base but a five-day trip, bringing the plane out on day one and going back to Denver on day five. |
Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
(Post 296252)
Isn't that funny how it works? Every guy on here will buy you a beer for flying the 1900 with no A/P in the soup, yet they'll poke and jab at a guy that does the same thing in an RJ...
Hiring minimums are commercial multi, but you still have to get through training, which is indeed no easy task. Rumor has it that we are not hiring less than 300 TT due to high washout rates, but I haven't seen it officially. To go from 300 TT to captain in 10 months would require some incredible timing, considering you would have to fly 120 hours every month for 10 months straight, including reserve. My average on reserve as an FO was about 40 hours/month, but I know that the reserves are getting used much more now. I was hired with 650 TT, upgraded as soon as I hit 1500, and it took about 15 months, FWIW. |
Lakes?
FWIW- Lakes pay might not be up to par but if you want to avoid sitting in an RJ as an FO for 3+ years, you can upgrade quick. After you get your time you can move to a good paying job. We've recently had pilot's hired at Frontier, Northwest, Delta, NetJets, Collita, and Alaska within the last 6 months.
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Originally Posted by thepotato232
(Post 296610)
Flying a 1900 from Denver to Farmington isn't exactly a threat to mainline scope clauses, and we got our industry-bottom contract the honest way: Incompetent negotiators and pilot apathy. Besides, the other guys can afford their own beer with those fat RJ paychecks they get. :rolleyes:
KiloAlpha, Lakes could be a place for you to do your penance. As desperate as we are for captains, a guy with ATP mins and prior 121 experience will get upgrade class at his discretion. Passing upgrade is a whole other story. The only real preparation you get for upgrade is what you pick up on the line and the gouge you collect from people already going through. Besides, going from GoJets to Lakes has got to do some kind of irreparable damage to your soul (though I'd still call it a step up). cfii2007, people are getting hired here with little more than a comm/multi. Washout rates are high, so it's up to you to be as prepared as possible. A couple hours of pattern work in a 172 may not do the trick. In answer to your other question, Lakes was awarded EAS contracts connecting Visalia (CA), Merced (CA), and Ely (NV) to Las Vegas, picking up where Mesa/Air Midwest wants to leave. The current rumor is that the flying will be done by Brasilia crews starting in February. On the other hand, it took the guys in Cheyenne more than six months to get their **** together in STL, so the time table is really anyone's guess. In all likelihood, Vegas (like STL) won't be a base but a five-day trip, bringing the plane out on day one and going back to Denver on day five. I've got about 1100/10 and want some more multi before I even think of applying. |
All Denver Based Baby!
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I didn't think DEN was junior.
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Everybody is DEN based.
And the CP has said that he hasnt hired anyone with less than 330TT. *yet* |
Originally Posted by AZFlyer
(Post 297313)
Everybody is DEN based.
And the CP has said that he hasnt hired anyone with less than 330TT. *yet* |
I had 330 hours checking mags before I got to touch a jet.
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Lakes INTERVIEW TOMORROW
Found out I have a interview tomorrow with out much time to prepare. Any recent interviewees have any advice for a low time flight instructor who needs to move up quickly?
Are they still using the Frasca? What approaches have they been using in the interview? ANY information would be helpful thanks. Kathleen |
Originally Posted by cfii2007
(Post 297110)
Where are most new hires going?
I've got about 1100/10 and want some more multi before I even think of applying.
Originally Posted by SharkAir
(Post 297335)
I had 330 hours checking mags before I got to touch a jet.
Originally Posted by Sperl0863
(Post 297362)
Found out I have a interview tomorrow with out much time to prepare. Any recent interviewees have any advice for a low time flight instructor who needs to move up quickly?
Are they still using the Frasca? What approaches have they been using in the interview? ANY information would be helpful thanks. Kathleen |
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