Whats the usuall response time for great lakes? I sent in an app and resume 3 days ago, thought i would have heard something by now if they are that desperate.

It varies. Even with an internal rec, it took about 4-6 weeks to get a call on mine. Be patient and keep updating your quals/resume/app.

Congrats on getting hired at Mesa! ;)

I'ma have to call bull**** on that one. There were two in my class alone, and I was one of 'em.

I am concerned about the difficulty of training and would like to get the MEI and ATP written out of the way before I apply.

I wouldn't worry too much about the training. Anyone with good study habits who works hard should do fine. However, I can't argue with anyone looking to get more experience flight instructing first. It helps big time in the long run.

I wouldn't worry about the ATP written. It is a stupid test and you don't learn anything from it. I took mine at All ATPs and I didn't learn a thing and had no problems when I upgraded. Best 300 bucks I ever spent. If you want to get your MEI then go for it but I don't think it is necessary, but it will help some. Letting student pilots try to kill you for a couple of hundred hours would be good for you though, even if you are only in singles. getting some instrument students would be good for ya too, assuming you are a CFII. Most of the pepole that wash out of training are poor on their instrument skills and knowlege. Most don't have too much trouble with V1 cuts and single engine ops after a couple practices. Good luck... and for what its worth, I think Lakes is one of the best kept secrets out there. I spent less than 3 years there and landed a job with a Major and have 1000 turbine PIC under my belt.

Be my guest. If you knew any better you would know that many people don't do what they say they will. But if you just started with Lakes, you'll learn that soon enough.

That pretty much sums up the life of a CFI/CFII!!!!!!!!

Sheesh, calm down. I'm just saying that if the CP is telling people that he won't accept applicants with XXX number of hours, I can probably find a pilot somewhere in the system whose presence proves him wrong. It's not like I'm about to walk up to Brad and tell him he's full of crap...

Oh, and I didn't just start with Lakes, I've actually been here for a while (seen all of the seasons, at least), and seen pilots with less time than me get hired - some did very well, some did not. If you're willing to work yourself into a near-suicidal furor in order to hold the job, you might be able to pull it off with 300 hours.

Just doing a bit a research after speaking with MZ down at a career fair in PHX last week. Thinking about going to Great Lakes to get some 121 time with a hopeful upgrade or a transition after the 15 month contract to Compass/SkyWest.

Getting married in May and should be okay financially to take the pay cut and still pay my bills. I am hoping to get MSP base (when it is fully up and running) or else DEN (commutable). Can anyone shed some light on how many hours I can hope to fly these days? Do you see them ever pro-rating the training contract?

I know Great Lakes isn't ideal, but FT CFI gigs around here are 16-18/hr and 80 hours a month (in the summer - less in winter). I figure if I am going to make that I might as well go to a 121 carrier and get all turbine multi time.

Anyone from Great Lakes fill me in a bit on hours flown per month. Ability to commute from MSP to DEN (or other base), and if they'd go back and do it all over again if they had to...

Thanks!

you could look at Silver Airways it pays a little more better outlook and a prorated contract

What do you mean 'better outlook'? I thought with EAS all taken care of that Great Lakes looked okay now...

As far as flying is concerned, the schedules have been averaging high 80's to high 90's. DEN flying is around 75 to 90 depending on seniority. MSP will more than likely be a pilot base in the next few months, and sounds like we're going to start a Pierre, SD to MSP run in FEB. We get a lot of guys from MSP who commute here, and more than enough flights to accomplish that on many different airlines. Holding MSP, I'm not sure how long that may take, but always a possibility.

As far as prorated contract....probably won't ever happen. It's 7500 dollars. If you don't plan on staying for 15 months, then don't come.

Concerning the better outlook, I'm not sure what that means. We did get our loans refinanced, and currently are getting 3 airplanes back plus maybe one more for the MSP flying. I'm thinking MSP will be a pretty good deal for us. The ability for our routes to interconnect and get aircraft to/from MSP with as little repositioning as possible will be a lot easier than the MKE flying. Some may not think we're doing ok, but I have a tendency to think on the positive side of things.

It's not for everyone. In the interview, they tell you about the contract, the bases, possibly what airplane, etc. We have no reason to hide anything. We'd rather newhire have the full story before coming than showing up unsuspecting and possibly drop out. Good luck in your decisions. We're all counting on you.

I guess I am only conflicted on whether or not I should fly aerial photography/CFI for another 500 hours and then shoot for SkyWest or if I should just bite the bullet and go to GLA - then reevaluate after my 15 months are up. I suppose if I delay until 1000TT and don't get SkyWest then I will be at the same place and still looking to go to GLA - just several months later and then I've delayed an upgrade that much longer. There are no 'easy' answers in this industry and it seems like everything is a bit of a crap shoot... I am guessing that 121 experience and almost all Turbine ME time is better than another 500 hours of circles in a C172. I am thinking if the wifey and I can swing the bills and make the DEN-MSP commute work - then that may be the way to go...

A very tough decision indeed. Make sure "the Boss" is in the loop. If the Boss is unhappy, EREBODY UNHAPPY.

You talked to Lakes, you didn't get a job offer! SKW might not even call you to interview, you never know. If you can go get hired at a 121 outfit (make sure you can provide for your family, that's the most important thing) then go for it. Check other places out as well, I hear ExpressJet is hiring! You don't want to be jumping from regional to regional, those are lateral moves and you want to avoid them, starting over at another regional for better pay and a Jet will suck (unless there is no better choice)! If the QOL at Lakes is something that you and your wife are questioning, don't do it. I hope you and your wife find something that both of you are happy with!

ExpressJet is considering adding a base in DEN, so I'd definitely consider them if you live in the Denver area.

ExpressJet does not have a MSP base and IrishFlyer implied he has around 500 hours. Going from Lakes to a regional career that operates RJs is not a lateral move. Going from Eagle to another regional with RJs is a lateral move. Flying for Lakes is probably just as miserable/enjoyable as instructing, and commuting for Lakes is probably worse. Getting your first hundred hours of multi time can be challenging. If you can't get the required multi time through instructing, then send your app into Lakes.

Doesn't matter how you feel about Lakes, it is still a 121 operator, it has a smaller fleet, don't fly transport category airplanes and has the worse pay and some of the worse rules out there, but it's a Regional Airline. Moving from Lakes to another regional it's a lateral move. Based on your comment moving from Eagle to Republic and flying the E190 wouldn't be a lateral move!... For the OP, if you have the time or soon will to go else where and it works for you do so, if it's easier and better for you to go to Lakes then do so! DOw what's best for you but jumping from one regional to the other is not on your best interest. I was in your shoes thinking the same thing and now that I have a bit of experience in this business I am glad I didn't go to Lakes with the mentality that I was just going to go there and then move to another regional.

ExpressJet Flight time requirements!
Flight Experience: 700 hours total time with 100 MEL required, with a current full time flying job preferred

You are correct. Maybe nobody will call me. I should have made a blanket disclaimer noting that it all hinges on my optimistic outlook of getting an offer from GLA and/or SKW/CPZ (someday). I also know that you can't ever 'plan' a career in the airlines but it never helps to think things through - like playing chess. Come up with 6 different moves all based on what piece the other guy moves.

I am at 500TT/100ME/75 INST - which is awfully close to SKW mins if I get 500 more hours. I know I can get ExpressJet, GoJet, etc with lower mins but the bases are a hard commute. My focus on SKW is that they are financially stable, have never furloughed a pilot, and have an MSP base that is fairly junior (all good things taking into consideration that bases close and change all the time).

The wife is all for me making a move to either be a CFI/Aerial Photo Pilot or to a 121 carrier. I am trying to get in before the HR5900 rule in 07/13 so that I can be in a good spot when the majors start to hire over the next 7-8 years.

GLA is a good option to get the 121 experience, ME experience, and hopefully the TPIC hours I'd need to get into a major.

Basically, I see I have two options.

1. CFI/Photo for the next 6-8 months making $17/hour and hope and pray SKW calls when I am at the bare mins (although I've heard from their recruiters they like to see experience in 121 carriers or other T-Prop aircraft).

2. Work hard and shoot for GLA, grin and bear the $17/hour and crank out the hours from my 500 now to whatever I am at after 15 months then either upgrade at GLA or move to a CPZ/SKW airline and get some jet time.

I will start throwing apps when I finish up my master's in August and see what happens. Maybe if I have a good spring/summer flying between now and then I will be close to 1000TT and will qualify for a bunch of airlines and go to the best fit of whatever ones call....

Seems like you have a good head on your shoulders, but I grantee you the regional airline industry will look totally different in 6 months!

Eagle in Bankruptcy
Pinnacle is Bankrupt without filling
Republic is not doing so good and we have to see what happens with Frontier
Tran States is losing airplanes, GoJet is hiring and apparently can't staff the airline
MESA struggling and loosing airplanes as it emerges from Bankruptcy
SKW is the shining star but they are not doing as good as before the purchase of the other regionals (ASA/ExpressJet)
*The rest of the smaller regionals are not doing great either

Much change will happen as it always does, but SKW is a good company and they seem to treat their employees well.
All the regionals would love people with Turbine time and 121/135 experience, but as the supply decreases you will see less and less people who have the above experience. Currently there aren't many regional pilots on furlough so there aren't many candidates whoa re looking for a regional job with the above experience, now if Eagle drops a few hundred guys that could be a different story.

Keep your options open, maintain a clean record (mins could change any moment). Eagle went from 1000TT 200ME to just requiring a pulse in a matter of 8 months!!!

I have to totally agree with you on that. Yes some got hired with a pulse who think they know the regional industry on the back of their head:rolleyes:

I was hired with over 1,000 TT so I am an expert... ha ha... J/K

Howdy Folks,

Quick inquiry about Lakes ... I've read the gouges and there's no mention of a sim eval during the interview. Is that indeed the case? Also, does GL provide any transportation to the interview? I wouldn't be shocked if they don't. Finally, what is it about their training that makes it so notoriously difficult?

Thanks for any information, I appreciate the help.

No sim eval when I interviewed a few months back nor did they provide a hotel or transportation to the interview. Fellow classmates of mine said the training was tough because there wasn't much of it.

FYI - the MSP to DEN commute is extremely competitive. I'd say a couple hundred Delta guys, numerous CPZ/9E/Mesaba guys, and an overwhelming number of SKW guys who are willing to commute to a line in MSP, rather than sit RSV in base.

Quite honestly, I find the last part about SKW guys puzzling.

This question is purely out of curiousity - not to say I would EVER consider it because I live by pretty high moral standards - but what if someone just walked away and said 'to hell with you, I'm not paying you $7,500'. Is GLA going to take you to small claims court? From what I've heard from some people is that unless a bank note is attached and it is amortized appropriately - there is no legal 'stick' that companies can use to get the employee to pay that back...

Respect! Takes balls to stand up for yourself. :) No one should be afraid to call out a crap company.

Case Against GLA

They will come after it... they might take their time and wait till your not expecting it and then mail it out to you. Here is a case of some guy who tried to fight it... he lost.




You’d probably be best not sharing your opinions and feelings since you’re an employee of GLA. I hope you do take some of it into your own hands and make improvements to the process and make it more positive. Although I’m sure you know the situations most of the new hires are in. They are barely able to eat and come with little money in their accounts to sacrifice themselves for a company that treats them like crap.


The Plains Hotel is more of a product of it’s own environment. It’s Cheyenne, WY… it doesn’t get much better. Not really complaining, just giving a description of the hotel. I think I left out the part that every thing you touch shocks you and the water scalds you or is freezing cold. Not that it matters. The hotel shuttle service is excellent. They pretty much have someone to drive all the new "intern pilots" around 24/7.

The white building? It has been getting cleaner? I can’t imagine it before.


I’ll take that part out about the management… you’re right that was a low blow. It wasn’t meant to you personally. Just to some of the people I came in contact with who weren’t very professional which frustrated me and caused me to go over the top. Aviation is a small world, and I think most people I talk to in the future I’ll make sure to tell them to turn the other way when thinking about going to GLA. Without people who stand up for themselves, the company will never turn into a desirable place to work.

Morale. Nothing to say to that… I saw what I saw. I actually texted someone who used to have my FOM in his possession. You should of seen the stuff he had to say about GLA, and he stayed with the company for 3 years. He basically told me to leave ASAP.

Why would you need to provide data on my night escapades? I don’t have a drinking problem. It’s just not a normal sight to see a higher up getting heavily intoxicated on a nightly basis.

The training department will provide a certain amount of training to get you back to proficiency, because if they didn’t the Union would come barking at the door to get another shot. The chief pilot is a class act and I really enjoyed listening to her speak. She deff wants what is best for her pilots so I do admire that about the company.


I’m sorry I had a bad experience and luckily I didn’t spend much money in the process. Can’t imagine what’s going to happen when a few people wash from systems, and a lot more wash from the sim. Show up and spend hundreds out of the companies pocket without it being approved? For what… what are you talking about? I’m sorry for some of the things I said Joe.

Good move Flybywire89. GLA is a terrible company to work for no matter how you look at it. In my opinion, the "glass half full" people are people who are able to accept mistreatment and have no sense of self-worth. I am out of the aviation industry altogether because I wasn't willing to start over repeatedly in an industry that has no respect for its employees. Great Lakes is one of the biggest culprits. Anyway, good move quitting. There is no fixing that place no matter how hard Joe tries. It's unfortunate because there are a lot of really awesome people that work for that company (Joe always seemed pretty cool from what I remember), but the employees can only do so much to make living in poverty more bearable. Yes, you look forward to seeing your friends at work, but you would look forward to seeing those same people at a job that treats you like a human being too...and you'd be able to afford to eat real food occasionally.

Moral of the story: If you have no sense of self-worth and you easily overlook the realities of the situations you're in, then Great Lakes is the place for you.

For the record, I was not bitter about the industry when I went there. I believe I was labeled as the most bitter person at the company by the time I left. Two and a half years of my life I'll never get back...plus a year at another equally bad company and the 4 year degree in aviation that I'll probably never use again. What a joke.

You’d probably be best not sharing your opinions and feelings since you’re an employee of GLA. I hope you do take some of it into your own hands and make improvements to the process and make it more positive. Although I’m sure you know the situations most of the new hires are in. They are barely able to eat and come with little money in their accounts to sacrifice themselves for a company that treats them like crap.
This is why I do as much as I can to simplify the process, and provide "real world" budgeting ideas.



The white building? It has been getting cleaner? I can’t imagine it before.
A lot more clutter before. Again, this has to do with Customer Service utilizing some of the rooms/hallway space for storage of flight display boards, desks, etc. When things slow down, this is going to be on the high priority list.

I’ll take that part out about the management… you’re right that was a low blow. It wasn’t meant to you personally. Just to some of the people I came in contact with who weren’t very professional which frustrated me and caused me to go over the top. Aviation is a small world, and I think most people I talk to in the future I’ll make sure to tell them to turn the other way when thinking about going to GLA. Without people who stand up for themselves, the company will never turn into a desirable place to work.
Without people who are willing to step up to make things better, things wont change either. There are some people who have to sacrifice themselves for the future bettering of others.

Morale. Nothing to say to that… I saw what I saw. I actually texted someone who used to have my FOM in his possession. You should of seen the stuff he had to say about GLA, and he stayed with the company for 3 years. He basically told me to leave ASAP.
And like I said, there are people here who have been here longer and had different things to say. I will say the individual that had your FOM was here when the "worst of the worse" was happening. No upgrades, new domiciles coming online, all hell breaking loose etc. I can say his timing was not good in that respect, but hindsight is always 20/20. Timing is everything, and people who got in at the wrong time have a reason to feel the way they feel.


The training department will provide a certain amount of training to get you back to proficiency, because if they didn’t the Union would come barking at the door to get another shot. The chief pilot is a class act and I really enjoyed listening to her speak. She deff wants what is best for her pilots so I do admire that about the company.
She is the best person for her position. She does a great job with being the mediation between higher management and the pilot group. She is high on the "trying to turn things around" wagon. She has a difficult job when it comes to these situations, but luckily we only get 1 or 2 per year, every other year or so.


Can’t imagine what’s going to happen when a few people wash from systems, and a lot more wash from the sim.
Again, with lots of the changes in the training dept, this will reduce drastically over time.

Show up and spend hundreds out of the companies pocket without it being approved? For what… what are you talking about?
It costs money to fix up, renovate, etc. When a task like that is undertaken, the Man who writes the checks determines if he wants to pay for it, not me.

I’m sorry for some of the things I said Joe.[/QUOTE]
Water under the bridge. Good luck in the future. Hopefully you can find something soon that works better for you that gets you closer to your final goal.

I spent 4 years at Lakes and I have to say that for the most part I was not disappointed in my decision to go there. The number one reason for my lack of disappointment was due to the fact that I did all my research and I knew what I was getting myself into. They don't keep the training contract, low pay or the no pay in training a secret. It is your decision to accept or reject the job offer, no one is holding a flame to your feet telling you that you have to accept the job. Yes, FO pay and CA pay at Lakes is very low but again this is something that you know going into it when you accept the job. People that are disgruntled at Lakes for the most part are the people who spend all their time worrying about how the company (ie. scheduling, training dept. or CP office) is trying to make their life miserable. I like Joe looked at everything as "Glass half full". If you start a trip in the mind set that this is day one and I am supposed to be done on day four and nothing else matters between those two days as long as I go home when I am supposed to, you can keep yourself happy for the most part. Again that is my view and that is how I personally managed to keep myself happy, and it worked for me.

As far as the training department goes, like any other company that offers paying passengers a seat, they are obligated to assure the pilots are safe and keeping their knowledge and skills up to standards. You wouldn't sign a student off to solo if he or she had not completed all the required material prior that flight would you? None of the instructors at Lakes are out to get you (on either airplane). If you show up prepared and preform the way you are required to preform you will never have an issue. Again the people that have issues with the training dept. are the people that don't do their part to assure a successful training event. This goes for new hire training, recurrent, and upgrade training at Lakes.

Lakes is not a good fit for a lot of people. But you have all the information in front of you when you take the job. You have to decide for yourself if it is something that you can grin and bare. I will say this about Lakes, the people that you work with and come in contact with on a day to day basis are the people who make the job worth it, not to mention those are the people that will help you find your next job if you played your cards right during your stay. Now that I have left and moved on to another flying job I realize how nice it was to work with people that I got to see on a weekly basis, not to discount the people that I work with now, but is just a completely different environment.

Thats my 2 cents on my experience at Lakes. Everyone is different and you have to do what is best for #1.

^^^I completely agree...

I was there for a little over 4 years before moving on and loved my job. Obviously, as previously posted, it's not for everyone. If you don't do your homework, however, before accepting a job - that's YOUR fault. It's no secret how things are...there are even many threads on here about what it's like being at Lakes. I knew what I was in for the day I first stepped foot in CYS (and really wasn't surprised...). Don't be mistaken - I'm not trying to sugar coat things...did I enjoy my job everyday?? He*l no...but, I did most days.

That being said, for you (Flyby-whatwasthename??) to come on this forum and personally attack people that: A) you really don't know and, B) are great people and great at what they do (Joe has done a lot of my training/checkrides, so I know that Joe, as well as the rest of his training department, are great people and do a great job. They, DO, however, expect you to be instrument proficient and *gasp!* study from time to time while in training) - it says a lot about your character, and IMO is in poor taste. (once again, just my opinion). You clearly have NO clue how small this industry is. :rolleyes: And, lastly, remember that a good attitude will get you further in life than a lousy one.


On a side note: Joe, thanks for coming into work today - you're doing a great job!! :D

P.S. Greatest pilot group. Ever.

I agree with all the Lakers and ex-Lakers on here. I was there 2.5 years and your attitude going in makes all the difference. It is one of the lowest paying worst work rules places to go to but everyone knows that. However, it is one of the best pilot groups to work with as well as the guys in the training department. They all do the best they can everyday with what they have to work with. Keep it up guys.

Taken From A JC Member:

It is no secret to anyone on this board, or trying to break in to this industry that Pilots wages are way lower than they should be when you consider not only the amount of money we need to invest to get our ratings. But the sheer magnitude of the responsibility and risks of our craft.

The problem is not the economy. The problem is not the airlines being cheap.

Look in the Mirror. The problem is YOU. The problem is, and always has been new pilots who "just want to fly". Its pilots looking for the yellow brick road to the magical land of the Majors.

When I started flying I received two bits of wisdom from pilots in the industry that I feel are golden. They are the following:

1) "Never take an opportunity that will deny you the next opportunity"

2) "Know what you are worth"

I have found that the majority of pilots in the job market today either dont know what they are worth, or worse, they know, but they knowingly sell themselves short just so they can get their foot in the door.

THESE DAYS HAVE TO STOP! This mentality has lead not only to low wages being standard, but they have lead to the creation of an entirely new breeed of insult to our proffesion. The Pay- For Time programs.

To all of you Pay For Time people, even considering the idea... Think about when you were a teenager trying to get your first job. Be it at a supermarket, babysitter or whatever. Do you think that you would have had a job if Jimmy from your math class went to the same establishment and said, "Dont pay John Doe to work here, I will do it and I will PAY YOU to allow me to gain experience."

The Pay For Timers send the message that we are so addicted to flying, that we not only will do it for free, we will shell out cash to live out our "fantasy" of commercial aviation.

Life is not a game. Every single Pay For Timer pilot takes the place of a potential actual JOB for a pilot out of work.

You cant blame the airlines for trying this, Management looks for ways to make money and like they said in the movie:
"If you build it, they will come" They are offering PFT programs, and for some reason, the Pilots continue to come... WE NEED TO BREAK THE CYCLE!

But what about other airlines that dont have a PFT. The ones who pay their pilots... We need to be SMART when looking for a place to work.

$24,900 Annually.

Thats the Annual Pay of somone who works long hours, taking his/her cargo from point A to Point B several times per day/night. Navigating in the dark, in all weather, abiding by the rules and regulations set by the transportation administration. They get there on time, because being late hurts performance numbers and will cause a reduction in overall business.

Yes, $24,900 for that.

Just to be a Pizza Hut Delivery Driver. (tips were included in this calculation, but I took an average hourly and tip rate that I found online, google it and see for yourself)

Now, lets compare that to just some of the Airlines:

Pinnacle: $23,400 ($1,500 Less than Pizza)

Comair: $19,800 ($5,100 less than Pizza)

CommutAir: $22,600 ($2,300 less than Pizza)

Silver Airways: $18,240 ($6,660 less than Pizza)

And my personal favorite...

Great Lakes: $14,400 ($10,500 less than Pizza Huts Delivery Driver)

* I am not knocking Pizza delivery men/ women. I am saying that when you take in to account the amount of investment it takes to become a Pizza delivery person, and the fact that if you crash your car, all you lose is an on time pizza delivery, as opposed to the lives of 70 people, Pilots should be paid more than you per their responsibility.

So, lets review....

You paid tens of thousands (some of you over a hundred thousand) in fees for your flight training. You are in debt. You understand advanced aerodynamics and take responsibility of hundreds of lives every day and you think that you are worth close to $10,000 less than the guy who delivers the Pizza?

Think about this the next time an airline calls you to interview.

Its time to set a minimum standard for hire at the airlines.

WE THE PILOTS are the ones to blame for allowing it to get to this point. WE THE PILOTS are the ones who have to put our foot down and change it.

We need to stop looking at it as the airlines have the planes that we NEED to fly. That is not the case. The truth is that WE the are the pilots who the airlines NEED to fly their planes.

So whats it going to be? What are you worth as a Pilot?

I'll bite the bullet for a few years, enjoy the fact that "going to work" means climbing up to FL250 and moving people from A to B, and build some really good experience. When the time comes and things open up a bit, I'll move onto the majors and make a decent wage.

Hopefully myself and guys like me will someday be lucky enough to have you on board, Pizza Boy :)

I'd recommend you leave the industry now or lower your expectations. Your feelings about the profession will never match up with the reality of it...at least not for a few years. I guess things might turn around eventually, but I got tired of waiting for it to happen. I felt out of control at my flying jobs. I want to control my own destiny. Something tells me you value yourself too much to accept being an anonymous number in the system. Good luck.

You're welcome for coming into work. I got to teach the Electrical system today! The guys did great. Hope all is well at your job!

Did I miss something.....? This 'paying dues' mentality never never ends. :rolleyes: