It's the lowest paying regional in an industry that pays far below what people are worth. What do you think? It's the definition of "bottom feeder".

GL will get you to places and probably faster than the other "superior" regionals where you get to fly them shiny jets. Guess it really depends on if you can survive the 13k a year pay. I know I can't. :(

There seem to be quite a few pilots who work there who really enjoy their jobs, yet those same pilots also freely admit that Great Lakes is a stepping stone to hopefully a major airline job. I see nothing wrong with a pilot actually enjoying his/her job. A friend of mine is in training right now as a new hire Basilia FO with Lakes. He's looking forward to it, yet fully understands that he's there to build time and move on.

The pilots who bash that place are the ones who've never worked there. For those of you regional plots who bash GLA pilots for working at a bottom feeder: look in the mirror. Major Airline pilots view you no differently. Personally, I'm a 21 year Eagle vet. I've enjoyed my job immensely and wish no ill will on ANY pilot - small regional, big regional, or major.

The real LOPEZ flies the beech!

Well said.

How long did it take for them to get to a major airline?

Do people still believe this is the way the industry works?

Lakes is the worst of worst, bankrupt, cant pay their airplanes off, cant afford to pay pilots more if they wanted to. They are so worried about pilots leaving, oh wait if they treated folks well they would not have to force a two year training contract. They do not pay pilots in training, they do not provide a hotel or even transportation prior to such either. I am sorry but if I had to pay say 500 bucks to interview there, then wait 2 months of not getting paid and then work an entire month to pay for the interview cost to fly an airplane with no glass, autopilot, toilet, and live off EAS (job security) no thanks.

I'm driving to a major hub in July for a vacation and flying out to LAX on an airbus, rather than take a Great Lakes flight direct that would save me a "2hr drive", haha. I try to avoid them if possible. Stuck in denver one time they kept feeding us BS about getting the airplane "fixed" until past midnight, having passengers line up, then tell them to sit back down, over and over again, with no apology. I stood up for the Px and asked them what they are going to do about their customer service, but they were rude to everyone and just blew it all off. It is truly the worst of the worst and shouldn't exist.

Whatever, Mr.expert. You must be a joy to be around.

Well, on behalf of the "customer service" you received (or didn't receive based on how it sounds), I'm sorry that situation occurred. Mx issues can be frustrating to deal with on all ends (pilot, passenger and customer service), especially when mx is constantly saying it'll be fixed in 20 minutes. This is the information that was probably being fed to the CS agents and they were doing their best to expedite the boarding process, only to be told that the aircraft still wasn't fixed, nor would it be for another "40 minutes", etc, etc, etc. I do know how frustrating it gets. Chances are, the agents could have had a long day up to that point and basically just "checked out" (not that I condone this).

A CS agent job is essentially to get yelled at by numerous passengers and be blamed for every little problem in that passengers travel that day, and then they have to put on a smile and say "thank you". After a while, this gets old, especially when all of the stuff that's happening isn't their fault yet the pax group takes their frustrations out on them. They were just trying to do their job as efficiently as they could based off of the information they were being provided.

I hope this provides a little guidance in what may have been going on at the time of your trip. Again, I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused you.

Lakes pilots seem like a tight group. I am sure no slouches in the hand flown approach department either.

Most people know all of this, it's not a secret, it's just calling a spade a spade. If an airline can't hire quality people that can "take it" or "perform under fire", can't afford decent planes, parts, mechanics, and a system that communicates effectively, can't reasonably apologize when necessary, it shouldn't be a surprise to hear them called what they are.

Seriously?, "expedite" the boarding process for a plane that's sitting 200' from the terminal? This is exactly where good judgement is necessary (and lacking). After being yanked around several times in a row, they already know they are severely late, having them "line up" at the door again, only to be told to sit down a few minutes later again(50' from where they lined up) is just ridiculous. But, that's why their a bottom-feeder. They are allowed to exist because people can and do put up with it, so far.

I'm sorry to say, you speak as if this happens regularly...?

95% of this is not accurate. Please do some research before posting. I'm not saying the stuff that Lakes does to us is great, but don't paint an image that doesn't exist. Thank you.

Obviously, for those of you considering working here at Lakes... make sure you understand who posts things that are correct and valid.

You won't be paid during training. You will be provided a hotel during training. You will not be provided a hotel or transportation for the interview, sorry. You will not be paid a dime during training, sorry again. Maybe one day (when Lakes realizes they need to attract more pilots) things will be done more to "industry standards".

My mentors in the industry highly recommended Lakes as a stepping stone. So, I'm willing to sacrifice a "shiny jet" higher paying regional and become a CA and get the turbine PIC. It's all about who you know anyways. If you don't network in this industry, then you will probably have a hard time getting out of (or into) the regional environment. 1000 TPIC is my goal and then evaluate the next step from there... I think they folks who come to Lakes share similar viewpoints.

Awesome, so we're shooting ourselves in the foot again and keeping the bar low.
If all it's good for is the "1000pic" and not as a reputable airline and company, just don't be surprised when people call it what it is. By taking a job there, you're perpetuating the idea that regionals can dangle the idea of flying for a major airline to attract pilots at poverty levels, as majors continue to condense down/farm out flying and there are far more pilots wanting jobs than could be employed at those majors. Do people have any self-respect these days? I hope you realize the industry has significantly changed and shifted since your mentors made it to their coveted 777 and A380 international positions...

Lakes is an Independent carrier, right? They sell their own tickets and fly their own livery along with maintaining "code-shares" with United, Delta and Frontier. Where do you get the "farmed out flying," concept?

Farmed out flying would correspond to some sort of a capacity purchase agreement with a major like United, Delta, Alaska or USAir...

You misunderstand what I was saying, I wasn't referring to Lakes there, I was referring to what "majors" are doing.

There is a lot of self respect in working for Lakes given the fact that the flying (routes) we do are not "farmed out" by the majors. We have our own niche that really doesn't affect the major airlines... don't you think the major airline pilots would respect someone who isn't taking their routes and using an RJ to do it? We go to the small subsidized cities that jets can't afford to go.

The industry really hasn't changed much, actually, it has always been cyclical even when they got hired. The respect that pilots receive from the general public has changed drastically. We aren't treated like "kings" anymore... but not many service oriented jobs are like that anymore. All part of the "entitlement" generation.

And yes, many regionals do dangle a carrot that says "Come fly for free with us so you can get to the majors"... so what? It's called pay your dues. I can handle a couple of years at poverty wages, get what I came for, and get on with life. However, if we have an opportunity as a pilot group at Lakes to demonstrate our discontent with the pay scale, then I guarantee you that it will be shown.

Do you think many of those guys in the left seat of a 777 or A380 flew an RJ? No. They flew old turboprops and paid their dues. They do respect us at Lakes, even if our company isn't "reputable", simply because a majority of them went through the same thing.

Mx delays take time and are a hassle regardless of the airline.

........deleted. Bottom post was a lot better than mine.

Some history is in order to show the absurdity of the criticism of Great Lakes and any opinion that one regional is better than another in the large scheme of things.

Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.

Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.

Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.

If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.

What are you talking about?? Flying a 76 seat RJ for 28 bucks an hour is so much better? Taking away routes that belong on mainline equipment, with mainline pilots and mainline work rules is better then flying at Lakes? Where is your self worth? I am extremely happy to say the flying I do has never taken away a job at the mainline level. It's all of these RJs and their drivers who keep spiraling this industry lower and lower! Look at the Colgan/Republic Q situation, a perfect example of how messed up this industry is!

You need to be asking every RJ driver out there what their level of self respect is, not some beech driver (and bros) flying to a town no one has ever heard of!

+1... Thank you for bringing some realistic and accurate things to the table.

Might want to work on your so called "facts"... SkyWest NEVER "required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a metro"! NOT "until about 10 years ago and prior", not at any point in the history of the company!:rolleyes:

Course not, it's everyone, from dispatchers (yes, I know how much they are paid too!) to pilots, to customer service, and so on. There were some posts back there saying that "there are always maint. issues", well no kidding, I wasn't complaining about that, I was complaining about how they handle those with the passengers. It seems like some of those posts are justifying treating passengers like cr@p and not doing the right things. I'm not talking about magically having the aircraft always working, I'm talking about taking care of the customers, reassuring them, apologizing when necessary, not treating them like cattle when they've been told to "line up" for the 3rd time in a row.

As they attempt to renegotiate their leases again and have aircraft taken back, they are the poster-child for a business that should simply "go away". I'm sure HB didn't default on their payments and go into bankruptcy "because of GL", but again, dragging down the entire industry and having to renegotiate, I have to wonder if it didn't help put some of the nails in the coffin, as GL has simply been pumped up by non-EAS government pork as much of their business. I never want people to lose their jobs, but this is one that makes it worse for everyone else out there, it's not that they earn 1 or 2 dollars less per hour, it's the 13K...I mean seriously, how do you even defend that? That's less than half of what I started out at. That's pretty blatant "one regional worse than the others". How much worse can it get?

This may be true, but a Great Lakes pilot has never taken a job from a mainline pilot. I believe Skywest pilots have done quite a bit of that.

SkyWest has given jobs to mainline pilots when they were thrown out on their a$$... Watch it bud, Great Lakes is a dying airline. How many 1500 ATP kids are gonna walk through those doors in the next year with low pay and no compensation in training? Especially since EAS will be going bye bye. All for BE1900 PIC, come on man. You can fly skydivers in a BE1900 it's defined as a commuter category airplane. A wise man chooses an airline he can live with IF he's stuck there for any duration longer than expected. Oh, the whole 65 thing will be going up to 67, so don't bank on a hiring boom anytime soon.

thrown out on their a$$ by Skywest...

Hey, sorry we destroyed your career but you can come work for us for 1/8 of the pay if you'd like.

Most of our Customer Service people are pretty good. Did you ever think that maybe they were having a really crappy night, much like you? I'm sure you, me, and millions upon millions of people have had bad days at work before. I've seen some of our CS agents turn a bad situation around with passengers by doing their job incredibly well. I've also seen CS agents not do so hot. This just isn't at GLA, it's everywhere.

It's pretty amazing that you're still torqued off about this whole thing. Maybe you should let us live our lives and you live yours? We'll ask your opinion when we want it.

Have fun getting your 1000 pic but there's little it will do for you. You will need 7000+ tt and about 2500 pic to be hireable at any major in the next 3-5 years. While you were learning to fly there were literally thousands of guys stuck at regionals with thousands of hours of pic time. Don't go somewhere for a quick upgrade right now. Go somewhere that you can enjoy life a little. No pay, no qol, no time off... You're in your 20's and your wasting it chasing a career that is a known heartbreaker. There is more to life then airplanes.

Some majors avoid pilots with more than 6000tt... There is more to hiring a pilot than total time...

Having that 1000TPIC will get you interviews faster than having that 5000 TSIC. Statistically, sooner interviews = sooner you'll land a job.

And GL has given many commuter pilots jobs when they were thrown out on the streets... hmmm... You're right, probably not too many people will come to Lakes who have more than 1500 hrs... I did. Why? Quick upgrade at a 121 operator. If Lakes can't find any pilot's (again doubt that will happen) then they will be forced to find ways too attract. Flying skydivers in a BE1900 is not the same as flying in a 121 environment, sorry. Anybody who is on a hiring board realizes that is the case. I'm not sure how you even can compare the two? A wise man makes choices that pay off in the long run and doesn't look into the immediate payoffs... if anyone wants to be stuck as an FO for 6+ yrs and make "good money"... don't come to Lakes.

[QUOTE=As they attempt to renegotiate their leases again and have aircraft taken back, they are the poster-child for a business that should simply "go away". I'm sure HB didn't default on their payments and go into bankruptcy "because of GL", but again, dragging down the entire industry and having to renegotiate, I have to wonder if it didn't help put some of the nails in the coffin, as GL has simply been pumped up by non-EAS government pork as much of their business. I never want people to lose their jobs, but this is one that makes it worse for everyone else out there, it's not that they earn 1 or 2 dollars less per hour, it's the 13K...I mean seriously, how do you even defend that? That's less than half of what I started out at. That's pretty blatant "one regional worse than the others". How much worse can it get?[/QUOTE]

Once again, what are you talking about all this aircraft stuff? What planes are getting taken away? Lakes is getting planes back to cover new flying...
You won't find any Laker who defends 15K/ yr... so where do you get that from? Nobody comes to Lakes for the pay. You have to understand that we are fighting for a pay increase right now. Nobody cares what you started out at and I would never use your pay as a benchmark for my life. All I know is that since I survived on Lakes pay that I can survive working anywhere. Pretty good LIFE lesson don't you think? You don't see Lakers whining about the pay because we learn to live with it for now. We don't need you telling the world how bad it is because you have no idea what it's like. I can tell you how to survive living on 15K. No government assistance, no kids, no help from mommy and daddy.

Meet the mins, then get a buddy to walk your stuff in. It's all who you know, not what you know. Nobody really cares what you flew. Tp or jet, nobody gives a shi+. They want to make sure they can spend 4 days with you and not want to strangle you by the end. Those of you arguing that rj time is better... You better get used to it, because you are most likely not going to get hired by a major because you are a cocky punk/ Chuck Yeager wannabe.

Math seems a little off being that 2nd year pay is 40hr. ;). All kidding aside, everyone has to make a decision for themselves. Could I survive pay rates at GLA as an FO or CA, he'll no! But that's not to say someone who lives in a base can't. I don't care what I fly as long as I have great people to work with, good pay and work rules with a decent management team backing us up. Now just waiting for the so called hiring boom :eek:

Tell that to the 3 guys who were just hired on at Alaska! Or the guys who were hired at Sprit, Allegient, Kallitta, Southern and so on! Most of them have been here maybe 4 years (some even less) and are moving on! You're lucky to upgrade at 4 years at your own regional! While it might not be United or Delta, at least it's getting out of the regional industry! So I call BS on your 7000TT crap!

Nothing to do with AS Chief Pilot John Hornibrook being a former Great Lakes pilot?

What does that matter, Its all about who you know!

I am just wondering how one can live off of 13,000 a year?
$13,000/52=$250/40=$6.25
Federal minimum wage is 7.25

Here is the breakdown for my budget... is this what I am worth? Heck NO! But this is what an average FO at Lakes will make...

$16.24 X 75 HR guarantee = $1218 (per month) X 12 = $14616 / yr

Average per diem (for me) = $400 (per month) X 12 = $4800 / yr

Guarantee + Per diem = $19416 / yr ... before taxes (mind you per diem is tax free)

This is what I budget for and I live within that budget. If I had children or student loans I was paying off then this would definitely be a stretch. Not for everybody.

This salary is unacceptable for someone with a 4 year degree and 3500 hrs TT. It's what I signed up for and don't plan on being at Lakes longer than what I came here to do.