$16.24x 75 guarantee = $14616 1st year fo base pay

Average line credit at most bases 85 = approx $16665

Average line TAFB- 325 hrs @ $1.35 per diem = $5265

Yearly holiday pay + one week of vacation pay = $730

All together = $22,660/ before Uncle Sam robs you.

I'm not saying this is always the case but this is a more realistic 1st year f/o pay than $13,000. I am not justifying that this is right and we are still by far the lowest paid. But as said in other posts, we are fighting for a contract and fighting to get paid what we are worth. There are many people that can not live on these wages and that's fine we aren't making you come to great lakes. I did just fine on 1st year fo pay at lakes, and there are hundreds of other people who make it by just fine at lakes on that pay. There are also a lot of people that don't have to go a full year making $16.24 an hour because they upgrade within there first year and make $27 an hour w/ in 8-10 months. Does that answer your question.

You're equating the pay to a standard 40 HR work week?
That isn't an accurate comparison is it?

USMCFLYR

What you "believe" is incorrect. Skywest started out flying all their own routes, the flying they currently do was all deemed not worthy of mainline pilots and given away by their own actions!;)

I do feel this is a fair comparison because a full time job is 40 hours a week. If one has a job at Great Lakes is that not considered full time. If a person went for a bank loan don’t you think the loan officer would break it down the same way to see what the individual made per week? I am sure that per diem would not count as income either.

No I don't.
Would you make the same argument for a young enlisted who works 24/7 for 8 months straight while deployed? What do you think the hourly wage works out tonin that circumstance?

In all the loans I've ever applied for I've never had to write down my hourly wage. I hear some of those car commercials spouting off about their financing if you "have a steady job and make at least $250 per week", but again I've not personally heard the commercial say instead " ....if you make $8 per hour"

Many jobs just don't equate to the money per hour ideal. Another that I see regularly - Real Estate. Have a few slow months of no sales and how do you think that figure gets skewed?

GLA pay is low. There is no need to try and dramatized the fact with inaccurate comparisons in my opinion.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR
Well back when I was a young PFC back in “beautiful 29 Palms” I applied for a car loan from my local credit union back in Michigan They wanted to know what I made and they wanted to know what I made per hour based on a 40 hour work week. I told them that is not how I was paid but I still had to break it down for them. As for a real estate agent I would think they would go by last year’s W-2.
I’m not trying to dramatize just try to make a comparison to a person that works full time and gets paid by the hour.
By the way a 1999 PFC made$ 13524/52=260/40=$6.50

I have also seen when taking a loan where they don't take into account BAH or BAS, they just want basic pay. For the non military folks;

BAH: Basic Allowance for Housing
BAS: Basic Allowance for Substance (food)

Depending where you live and your rank this could add to well over 1k a month!

I am not sure why are bashing the folks at Lakes, some go there because it's the only place that gives them the chance, some go there because it's the first place that called and some go chasing the upgrade. It's their choice, they got to live with it for the good and for the bad. I do understand the whole point about lowering the bar but that can be said for all of us.

This has been my experience any time I've bought a car.

Then you and I have had different experiences with buying cars (or anything else on loan) then because I have never been asked to breakdown my SALARY into a per hour wage (which is the difference between a SALARY AND PER HOUR WAGE EARNER), even before the military. At most they want to know my weekly take home.

Jay2 - did you also explain to the loan officer that you did not work 40 work weeks? I think 60 HR work week would be more average and that is in garrison, we won't even hit on the deployed time I mentioned in my first post. I mean if they just want a numbers game and fit a square peg in a round hole. As far as GLA hourly pay goes, it is already broken up that way. Didn't someone else post earlier around $16/HR?

USMCFLYR

Honest question. It seems that most people would consider GLA a stepping stone as far as career goals. However is this solely based on the pay scales or are there other factors involved? If you stuck it out and made 100k on the erj120 there rather than 40k would you stay?

If you don't see the difference between trying to get hired at Delta vs getting hired at Spirit then you are just kidding yourself. You can get hired at the airlines you listed as an FO at any regional you think of. There are pilots at Spirit actively applying to Delta... that should tell you something. Go to a job fair and watch the lines for the different majors. You are going to see people congregate on the larger, more stable airlines. Look at the hours of those who got hired at those airlines. If you want any of the airlines you listed then go right ahead but those are risky airlines.

I really like Alaskan but you still aren't getting hired there unless you know someone or have a ton of time. If everyone is getting hired with the magic 1000TPIC then why are there so many guys stuck at different regionals twiddling their thumbs. When Delta, United, American, etc start hiring... the competitive minimums will be pretty high. Do you want to rack up 7000 hours scraping by living in a rental apartment or do you want to have a life and be able to go on vacation. Thats the difference between great lakes and a larger regional. Neither is pretty but there is a better QOL at one.

There are no shortcuts unless you are exceptionally lucky. You are gambling that you wont be stuck at great lakes, that they stay in business, and that nothing happens to you that ruins your chance at a major. The 3 that went to Alaskan were the exception and not the rule.

They did that in the past because everyone was hiring and the competitive mins were relatively low ... they didn;t want to hire the more experienced guy because he would jump ship to the better airline asap. In the next wave when career airlines start hiring in large numbers; I don't think they will be worried about people jumping ship because of the relatively quick movement at those airlines and the fact that there is a HUGE pool of guys with 10000 plus hours with near perfect records. The competitive minimums will be quite high and 5000 Tsic or 1000 pic isn;t going to get you the job at any highly competitive airline unless you are extremely lucky.

I am not talking down to people btw. I am in the same boat and will be one of the guys well under the competitive minimums for where i want to go. I was more trying to explain to that poster why i think ****ing away your early 20's is a huge mistake. He could be somewhat happy while he builds his time but he is instead under the impression that he will be out the door at 1000 TPIC.

It's not an accurate comparison because most pilots at GLA are on duty for more than 40 hours per week. So the pay is actually substantially lower than minimum wage. I never understood how any arbitrator could have allowed a contract with pay that low, but since the pilots had to sign it, I guess that makes it legal. I'm still trying to decide whether TSA or GLA was a worse place to work.

As I've been reading this forum, I must say it strikes me as quite amazing the number of people who feel that it's the fault of Lakes pilots that pay in the industry is low. I'd like to try and resolve this with a little bit of business knowledge. Pay, in any business, is largely determined by the revenue able to supply it. If a business has a lot of money coming in, they are able to pay more (ie; oil companies are known to pay their execs well) and if a business has a low revenue and low profit margin the employee seems to be paid less (ie; flipping $1 double cheeseburgers seems to pay closer to minimum wage than an oil exec.). Now in this forum there has been some recollection of the days when mainline captains and fo's were paid well into the 6 figures, but what was flying like back then? A high profit luxury item. Looking at airlines today, they have shifted their model from a high profit luxury expense to a low profit margin ticket.

All I am saying is as passengers have demanded lower fares, management has had to reduce ticket prices to stay competitive. The real people responsible for all of our fairly low pay is not sitting in a lakes cockpit or in an upper level management position; they are all sitting behind you. They scour the Internet looking for a low fare, then still gripe about having to pay that for the flight. Then management, who is also usually blamed for our low pay, has to at least try to break even. As such, when they reduce fares and the profit margin goes negative, the company will then do what it takes to reduce costs to return to the black (didn't AMR lose almost a billion dollars 4th quarter last year? How would you turn that ship around?). As with any business, labor is the most expensive. Therefore, it is usually the first targeted.

So why then are Lakes pilots paid the least? Well our competition certainly isn't mainline carriers, but we run routes from out stations to hubs that people could drive if they felt that the ticket price was too much. So to keep people in the airplane, the fare has to be set low enough so that the person would rather fly with us then drive to the hub and fly out of there. That is what keeps ticket prices down and in turn that is what keeps pay down.

Also, everyone here seems to agree that regionals are a bottom feed to a major. And all this income comparison goes so far, but look at other industries. Don't most starting doctors start with year long unpaid internships? Followed by many years as an aid or assistant for wages similar to ours. Also, the student debt for a doctor is probably going to be much higher than ours. Same with lawyers, unpaid internships, then work under a big name lawyer in town for wages equally as small with debt usually well into the 6 figures. Being a pilot and making 20, 30, 40 some odd thousand a year isn't like we're underpaid. We are after all in the same company as doctors and lawyers.

Then lastly, all this comparison about pay, qol, upgrade times, getting hired at a major, etc. What kind of tit for tat game is this? We're all working toward the same things and shouldn't we all really be viewing ourselves as in this together? I mean, we all want a job at a major where our pay is better and our schedules are more nice to us, yet we're here trying to defend the job that we have to get us to our dream job? Our employment here at a regional (just like any employment I suppose) is a use-use relationship. 16 bucks an hour or 30 bucks are all nothing compared to what our top salary could be (250,000?). We're all scraping the bottom and trying to point fingers and pretend that we're less at the bottom of the pit than others? Guys, we're in this together and I wish everyone the best of success where ever it is that you go. We all want to move on, and I wish that we all do.

Then why should major airlines pay more than $40K a year for their captains?

There are many airlines today that are selectively hiring people with less than 6k hours for a reason and ignoring the large pool of 10k hour pilots, they also tend to be the top paying airlines in the industry right now.

Also, please learn some proper grammar, capitalization, and punctuation.

Getting that 1000TPIC after 2-3 years at lakes and then going to Jet Blue, Virgin, Spirit, Frontier, etc for another year or two will get someone's foot in the door at a major much faster than going to SKW for 5 years and sitting in the right seat for all of it. Probably will result in better paychecks, work rules, and QOL too. ;)


Gotta have some sort of carrot to keep the cheap labor rolling in at the bottom.

Not sure Lakes is the company you need to be worried about. Mainline didn't used-ta fly a 737 into Worland, WY.

Is Great Lakes still offering interviews/hiring people?

What's the hire date of the most junior captain?

Any I think they are still hiring/short on pilots...

I do not know their future interview plans, but I do know that pilots were interviewed today 6/6

Thanks for the info.
Is there a phone number to call the recruiters, or an email address to ask them about future interviews?

Thanks

Interviews later this month as well

What's the turnover currently like there? 20%? If it's 20% a year, they would need to hire about 60 new recruits a year to sustain the pilot cadre of 300.

We have a class of 16 going right now and no end in sight to the exodus. Please be proficient if you apply, we really do fly here. B/C Loc and NDB approaches are a reality.:eek:

Why would GL attract people that are not proficient?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You have HSIs in everything though, right? BCs are somewhat easier- put in the front course and go. I was told the sim training culls quite a few recruits so proficiency would get checked there or else the pilot goes away. On the latter subject, let us know if there are more rumors about people washing out of the 1900 versus the 120.

--
As for as turnover and expansion, would appreciate any feeling for the numbers involved. I would tend to think there is quite a bit of turnover at GLA even during static periods, as GLA is not considered a career objective all that much.

I interviewed on the 6th and got offered the July 9th class. Did anyone else hear back yet?

Have they increased their mins for the ATP rules yet?

I just spent two seconds of my life checking for you, and it looks like GLAs mins are still 750/50 according to Great Lakes Airlines

Gadzooks, It Worked!
 

I am really nervous to post this, I hope it is recieved well and I don't come across as self-serving, I truly just want this information out there, that's all.

Dear all people not interested in working for Great Lakes: Unless you have something to add to this conversation, it's extremely frustrating and insulting to us who have put alot of ourselves into Great Lakes. We are very capable of pointing out the downfalls of coming to work here on our own and your "advice" comes across entirely the wrong way.

If you are interested, and want to know the sunny-side of working at "Ol Lakes Air" read below:
Disclaimer - The following information is coming from a spoiled Legacy-kid who wanted to find the best way to make it to his dream job, and to fly with his Dad before he retired. After 5 years and 5 months of hard work at Lakes, I have achieved that dream. I am 27 and according to many, I have hit the proverbial lottery in the airline game. I'm bound to be a little cheery when it comes to my recollection of things, but I also hope I come across as less-douchey and more-informational as to why one might consider GLA as a place of employment.

Great Lakes was described to me by a former Laker who said if I was ready to "fly my butt off" this was the best way to get the experience right out of college. People come here and fly approximately one year (sometimes less, sometimes more) until they upgrade to Captain. Upgrade is entirely about preparedness, there have been some who lack the maturity or leadership skills or need more time studying, that take 2-3 years to upgrade, but if you feel you have the ability, seniority will NOT hold one back at Great Lakes.

Seniority at Great Lakes is always moving, maybe it's the harsh working conditions, maybe it's because we're just scrappy pilots, but Lakers - in the worst of times - always find a good place to go work once they've achieved their goals with Lakes. For some that's simply, 1000 TPIC, for others, it's the airline experience to get hired at a larger regional. My goals were to get the 1000 TPIC and see if I could build any better resume, then go to another regional if I felt I was done here. Because of the rapid move up the seniority list, not only does upgrade come quickly, but reserve is minimal (usually 1-2 months, if at all at the Jr domiciles.) One can achieve weekends off or a schedule that meets their needs to varying degrees of success based on domicile.

After 2 years, 6 months at lakes, having been a Captain for about 1.5 yrs, I took the Union Vice Pres position. Many similar volunteer positions are not just available at Lakes, but are in desperate need of more leadership. I highly recommend getting involved in union meetings as they are a place to put ones energy to MUCH better use than these forums, no matter what company you work for. I enjoyed the people I worked with in our local, they all wanted to improve the company and it was some of the best times I've had working here.

After 3.5 years at Lakes, I applied and was offered Asst. Chief Pilot (yeah I'm that guy) and I also took on Line Check Airman duties shortly thereafter. This is something that is rarely talked about on the forums, but the career development one can achieve at Lakes is significantly better for the people who have the personality-type and want to take on roles in the training dept. or management. Unlike many other regional airlines, the opportunities are there because Instructor pilots, LCAs, and management pilots are looking for the next great flyng job too! Looking back, I'm sure I didn't always do things in the best way, I wish I had taken more management courses and learned more people-skills in college, that's for sure. But I still have many great friends, and I just hope that I didn't act like a douche to my fellow lakers while doing the job, if I did, I'm sorry and I owe you a beer.

Last August, my dream airline started accepting applications and I got an interview the following May. The guys who interviewed in the same group as me were all in their mid 30's, or 40's and to my knowledge there were only a handful of us interviewing who were in our 20's and we all had come from Great Lakes or had achieved Turbine PIC in some other way that was extremely lucky or challenging, or a combination both.

Lakes is a place that offers career advancement, for some that means a stepping stone before another stepping stone. For others, they go straight to a job that they can spend the rest of their career at. I have seen a great many success stories in my 5+ years here and one thing I will never do is regret coming to Lakes instead of waiting a few more months and going to a different regional. I had no idea at the time, but my haste in getting an airline job benefitted me immensely. I will miss the people here and I know that without a doubt Lakers are the best group to be a part of and if you don't have connections when you start your career, Lakers go everywhere in the industry and I have made many friends here that could help walk a resume in to darn-near any airline out there.

Be aware of what you may be getting into, the pay has been talked about, the training is very difficult. The day-to-day flying can be really fun, but also is grueling. To my knowledge, HR peeps that get to know our pilots are always impressed with our attitude, other pilots love the skills we build and the interview boards at many (not all) airlines look very favorably at the experience one gains here.

There, I've done what I always wanted to do on here. I hope you found it helpful but this is just one opinion, ask the right questions so you can make your own.
Best of luck to all hunting for jobs, I'm out.
*drops microphone, walks off like a rapper*

And while the wonderful person above is going to a major. His good buddy has been to 2(well known) regionals and was furloughed for nearly two years. I have zero TPIC and still 7 years from upgrade.
If I was to redue my aviation trek, I would have tried to suffer for 5 years and gone to Lakes to be in his position. He also a hell of a guy and deserves all that he is getting.
PS- No I will not trade you Vick for your 18th round pick.

+1...............

astrelin- Good post! In 06-08 when all of our friends were going to big regionals with jets, it took a lot of guts to go to a smaller regional where you didn't hear the best of things. I was lucky enough to be turned down from Mesaba in 07. I ended up flying cargo for a company people told me I shouldn't go to. I had the best time of my life there, I upgraded, left, and now flying corporate. For some people with the right attitude (which you have) Great Lakes is a good choice.

****in' a, Astrelin. Congratulations.

Astrelin, your post was too positive. Lets try to keep it standard here and have people who don't work for us tell everybody else how it's like to work for us. Congrats on the job as well.

J

Astrelin- definitely good to hear the enthusiasm! No doubt, life is what you make it. I'm 34, just found a part time job driving skydivers and enjoying every minute of it. I'm looking to working for a company like GL some day.

Congrats astrelin. Pretty sure you were the only person in management that I didn't think treated the pilots disrespectfully. I got into flying in large part because my dad was a navy pilot. I wish I'd gotten to take him up before he died. Enjoy the hell out of flying with your dad.

Anybody knows when the next interviews are going to be?

Just an FYI

Their minimums went up to 900 TT and they now require the ATP written.

Careers

Gotta get that ATP written out of the way!! :eek: