Looks like some ASA pilots will have some explaining to do...
 

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15031942/detail.html

ATLANTA -- A Delta 757 and an Atlantic Southeast regional jet came within three seconds of a disastrous runway collision Friday at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.
Without clearance from the tower, ASA flight 876 to Greensboro, N.C. crossed runway 27-right at 10:10 a.m. just as Delta flight 261 roared down that same runway, taking off for Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.The 757 was too far into its takeoff to shut down and came within 1,250 feet of the smaller jet, Federal Aviation Administration spokesperson Kathleen Bergen confirmed to WSB-TV Channel 2.A representative of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association said the planes were three seconds from a collision.Officials at both the FAA and the National Air Traffic Controllers Association said the ASA pilot failed to follow instructions from controllers.The ASA pilot had been told to wait until the Delta flight took off before crossing the runway, according to Doug Church, Director of Communications for NATCA.The pilot repeated the instructions back to the tower, but proceeded across the runway; directly into the path of the Delta jet, Church added.Both flights continued on to their destinations. No passengers were injured.

It could happen to anybody that becomes complacient but, they are upgrading 2 year guys now and hiring 250 total time new hires.

Hope that wasn't anyone I know:eek:

could happen to any of us, a reminder to be vigilant. Fly safe.

Where did you hear they were hiring 250 total time new hires

Dont think it has anything at all to do with how fast you upgrade-BUT bringing 250 hr students into the cockpit of a Jet and putting them at an airport like Atlanta on the other hand is a HUGE Problem. We will be seeing more of these types of things in the future, due to the people companys are putting in the cockpits. I do not let any of My familly and Friends Fly on airlines that have such crazy hiring mins., such as ASA, MESA etc., and you all that have any regard for your famillys safety should not either
But we should all remember that this can happen to anyone, 250, 2500, and even 25,000 hr guys. Be safe out there guys n gals.

Actually BLKFLYER the have no mins if you have a stupid RJ Transition course. Sick if you ask me

1250 feet! You mean the 757 was almost at pattern altitude when it past? Doesn't sound that close to me.

I think they mean it came within 1250 feet of the RJ, presumably still on the rwy as the ASA crossed in front of it. Oops! (to ASA, not you....)

Just a quick note on 250 hour new hires. Im pretty sure most people would agree that the CA does the taxiing. This crazy upgrade thing has only recently taken place in the past year or so. The CA should have had over 2500TT to even be there and chances are he/she had more. I don't really know what it all has to do with 250hr new hires. I actually know of the crew that was on board that aircraft and they both have a bit of seniority under their belts. Guess what it all boils down to is that we are only human. I can't believe that doesn't happen more if you ask me. Completely amazes me.

A busy airport like ATL is no place for such taxi instructions either. Especially being told to wait for a Delta in a Delta hub!!!! It's like in EWR when you are told to follow the 737 when there are 20 of 'em rolling around. I've been given pos. and hold behind landing traffic but never a runway crossing clearance behind an aircraft taking off. That is an unusual taxi clearance that anyone could screw up in my opinion.

Lets all be glad we didn't have a Tenerife, Canary Islands on our hands. (Although different circumstances, only thing I could come up with in this tired state, let the flaming begin!) ;-)

Like I said in my statement, It can happen to 250 hr pilots as well as 2500hr n 25,000 hr pilots. If you think that the person pushing the pedals or turning the tiller is the only one taxiing, then Im sorry to hear that. The person recieving and reading back the clearances in that cockpit is just as responsible If not more. Yes we are all human and we all do make mistakes, but in our buisness one mistake can injure or kill alot of people.

You are right on the money.....isn't that the whole purpose of CRM?



TI

I am not an advocate for the 250 hour pilots in the airline flightdecks, but there have been many studies that show that statistically, the lower time pilots may be less likley to have an incident due to being overly cautious. The same studies point out that the middle time pilots are the most incident prone due to complacency and being to comfortable in the cockpit.

Again, I am not an advocate for wet ticket new hires, but I don't think that the lions share of the blame can be placed on the inexperienced guy in the right seat. Oh, and for the one that brought up Tenerife...it was the right seat and back seat drivers that told the captain (25000 hr) to stop...he went anyway.

I cant believe some blame is being put on 250hour guys. Great critical thinking and problem solving guys. They just started this no minimums stuff 2 months ago. Its not even possible for them to have made it to the cockpit as yet. How about figuring out a real problem?:confused: Some of the biggest finger pointing, and the fastest blaming ive ever seen happens in this forum...:rolleyes:

how easily we forget how inexperienced we all once were. we all need to remember ioe in your first jet or turbo-prop job as well as the month after. If you tell me you were on the ball 100% of the time and werent overwhelmed then you had a lot of experience or are full of it. Maybe labeling this guy as a 250 hour wonder was incorrect but most regional fo's nowadays have been in the right seat less then a year and most are upgrading prior to the 2 yr mark (i am guessing but that sounds about right). If you are going to call a 1 yr fo and a 2 yr captain experienced.... i think a lot of past airline pilots would laugh in your face. SUre we can do a good job and we made it to our position but we are lacking the years of experience our predecessors had to refine the art of doing this job. This is the first time in history ( past few years) that a significant amount of two year seniority captains have taken to the skies AND low time pilots have gotten hired at some of the nations busiest airports. Things like this are bound to happen and not because of one person who was hired with minimal time. We all are inexperienced nowadays. Regional airlines arent flying to podunk airports and back to one hub anymore. We are flying many of the same routes the majors fly from one airlines hub to another.

I remember listening to the tapes as a United 757 taxied in PVD during low vis and the crew sounding like rookies having no clue where they are. How much experience was in the cockpit that night? This can happen to any pilot or controller with any amount of experience. It would be a shame if this thread boiled into the low time vs. high time usual banter that doesn't do anyone or this profession any good. Now dicussing creative ways to improve safety and pay would be much more productive IMO.

I completely agree; whose killed more people, low timers or high timers. My point is, where all human and we all get complacent. Experience helps but it just means there’s a higher price to pay because they give you more to manage.

BTW, low timers. I used to teach PFT for Luke AFB in AZ which is the worlds larges F-16 training center. Every year almost 1000 F-16 pilots go through there courses for varies reasons with most being new to the a/c. The average F-16 trainee has around 150-200 total hours at Luck AFB. Makes you wonder!

My point is that they sent a monkey to outer space and I’m not taking about SAABaroowski. We train and train and train and we still get complacent no matter what our age or skill level is.

FYI:

Just got word it was a senior ASA crew, Capt over 8 years and FO around 2 years

Wow, 2 yrs is senior for an F/O?

Well jet upgrade is currently 2.5-3yrs

There is more to this..

The controller cannot say "Acey 001, wait for the Delta 75 crossing left to right, then cross 27L at foxtrot....."

That is illegal. Could have been a controller problem...?

Agreed. If that is actually the clearance given then ATL is just begging for runway incursions. Granted we are getting our information from a news article, and we know how reliable they are...

While this may be true, I have flown in and out of ATL from the left seat os an RJ and I can't recall any intersecting taxiways where visibility down the runways is obstructed. Someone mentioned CRM earlier in this thread, and someone else mentioned that though the tiller in on the CA side BOTH crewmembers are tasked with taxiing the aircraft. Quoting the report on the Comair crash at Lexington, statistics show that a majority of accidents/incidents that happen on the ground occur when the CA is taxiing and the FO is off frequency or heads down running a checklist.

Mesa had a deal a year ago where the FO had just come back on freq and read back a pos/hold instruction wrong resulting in a non-cleared T/O. Slow down out there, and keep the multi-tasking to a minimum. Read back all instructions, and make sure you emphasize portions that involve a runway.

I had a deal in JFK where it was dark and raining and I blew through an intersection I was supposed to hold short of for a DAL 67. Guess what the FO was doing? He was off freq talking to ops to coordinate a gate. I had a healthy serving of crow from the ground controller... what blew my mind is that an AA 67 had just done the exact same thing by blowing through an intersection less than 5 min before...

This incident should tell us all to SLOW DOWN AND BE CAREFUL. Personally, I taxi like grandma and spidey senses are tingling any time I cross a runway.

Fly safely!
:)

If he had his strobes on while crossing the runway, it would have never happened, at least according to everyone from the strobes thread.

I think there is an old AC on this... when crossing a RWY you should turn on every available light. You are right that it is not like a crossing guard for train tracks, but it is part of the methodology of safety. When I reach up and turn on the lights it is just another signal to myself that checklists must stop and all eyes are looking outside up/down the runway. After crossing, the lights come off and we can return to unfinished business.
:)

Yea the United Captain sounded foreign and the FO was a woman. The controller (who was as if not more stupid than the crew, in fact she probably should never have been allowed to control aircraft again, it was that bad. "hey aircraft saying your on the active runway in 1200 RVR, shut up I'm trying to take some planes off here" I'm paraphrasing but that's pretty close. No joke) was a woman as well. (True Story) Not that there's anything wrong with that.:D

In all seriousness though the controllers are doing a lot of training of brand new folks as well. If you listen it's pretty easy to pick up on which ones are new. The media never gets this stuff right. Neither does our rumor mill. I'll wait for the final report to pass judgment.

Yes, I remember that they reported to her that they think their nose was on or close to a RWY. She told an a/c to take off and then shortly after the crew reported they heard engines go by and that they sounded really close. Then she told another a/c to take off and they refused. She berated both for not doing as they were told. I think this is the same incident you are talking about.

If anyone can find the ATC clip I would love to hear it again. They showed it in ground school at SKW.

She was unbelievable! Someone said that she is still working! God help us all!

Like I said, if that was indeed the clearance then it was a very odd one. Seemed like a direct quote but who knows with the media.

At the airline fly for I always make certain the Captain repeats me when we are given a hold short of taxi instruction. I also remind the Captain once again of the hold as we approach the hold short line and expect him to repeat me.

Yea your right. It was a USAir guy that saved the day and refused to takeoff until it was all worked out. Saved many lives with a little common sense.

Whose in charge? :confused: There's a fine line between being respectfully remindful and becoming a nuisance. If he's giving you reason to then that's another thing, but every time? Just pay attention to what he's going and speak up when it's needed.

To comment on the idea that 150-200 hr millitary pilots are the same as civillian pilots is crazy- the US Governments instructors are the TOP Pilots out there- thats why they have been assigned to this duty-on the other hand the majority of CFI/CFII out there in the civillian world are people who just finished training themselves, and our just looking for a way to build time-The Breakdown of this whole system is not the 250 hr pilots it is the instructors who are out there with no experience themselves teaching other People- No one should be an instructor with the sole purpose being to buid time.

You expect him to?? ok boss

Learning has occurred!

You must not fly on ANY European airlines.

It wasn't a comparison about civilian pilots with the same amount of hours being is as good or better than a military pilot with comparable time. It was that both make mistakes and both can become complacent. Why is one better than the other? It’s not entirely because of their instructors but because of their discipline and motivation. From my experience, you put military pilots on way too high of a pedestal. That are good but they all aren't great.

As for what’s wrong with instructors, it actually what’s wrong with the world. Some are better than others and very few are the best. This same scenario plays out in every profession.

Repeating taxi instructions is SOP at CX, it is a smart thing to do. However, taxiing the airplane is not solely a Captain thing here either. Whoever is doing the leg is who taxis so it is just good airmanship to make sure everyone is on board with the taxi instructions.

Maybe I should have said that a lil different - They are the Top pilots out there in the millitary and thats why they have been made instructors.