Anybody have problems with Eldee 2 arrival DCA
 

Hey,

Just curious if anybody has been having issues with the Eldee 2 arrival for DCA now that it has been modified. We recieved an e-mail from the union stating that people are having issues with meeting the crossing restriction at Eldee 8,000 and 210kts. The issue has been the short distances between fixes. I was just flying captain who had problems with meeting the restiction and speed because they were icing conditions. For those not familiar the EMB, in icing conditions shows an increase of roughly 30% more power making it very difficult to fly this arrival. The capt said he had to drop the gear and spd breaks out to meet the restrictions. The union said they are having pilot alt deviations recently esspecially with strong westerly winds. I personally thought it was me, but after talking to the capt and receiving an e-mail for the union I was interested if any other carriers out there having similar issues. Here is the arrival for reference. Usually we come from BNA across BKW. So is anybody else having problems too?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0801/00443ELDEE.PDF

I have seen a Fed bust a CA for failure to plan a descent in icing conditions so that all restrictions can be met, even with an increased power setting. This basically means getting down early. In the CRJ there is yellow "min power" marker when the wings are on, and this Fed considered it a violation to reduce power below that setting while in actual icing conditions.

If the arrival is constructed so that it's just impossible to do the restrictions in your aircraft in the given conditions, then state "unable". Maybe they need to redesign their approach to accomodate the airliners that use it. Probably a good idea if you give ATC a heads up if you expect to be unable.

Flew it the other day no problems, it just requires planning and CRM. You can't start your briefing once you're on the descend.

Have yet to fly the ELDEE since they modified it, however it sounds similar to the RAVEN (sp?) into BWI--where you've got crossing restrictions in close proximity to each other. As was previously mentioned, plan ahead for it and just fly the airplane. That's what we're all paid (somewhat) to do right?

Hopefully Saab2000 will chime in on this. He had some good insight on it a few weeks ago when we flew together. I don't recall it being a problem though. Even it is a little tight I doubt a little planning ahead couldn't solve it... even in icing conditions.

Groovinaviator is correct. We flew it and it will be a problem for some folks. Unfortunately it's not an "At or Above", it's "At".

Plan ahead, read the chart in advance.

Yeah, the icing issue is a tough one. May have to slow to 250 way out and tell ATC of that fact. That way you can fly with power set.

I said when it came out that that arrival is going to cause trouble and apparently it is.

Plan ahead, communicate with your fellow pilot, brief it and talk to ATC ahead of a problem, not when it's happening.

Also, the yellow arc on the CRJ for icing and the Fed is ridiculous because you also get an indication of whether or not the wing icing is still on via other information. We are told that the yellow arc is advisory in nature and that you still have ice protection below it. That said, it is probably wise to stay in the green arc.

Still, that fed must be a complete prick.

But this is a good thread. Beware the Eldee 2 arrival.

The arrival is difficult. It is nearly impossible to do smoothly. If you are worried about being smooth(I argue that you should most of the time) you will probably miss at least one of the altitudes.

It is definately a pain in the rear. We flew it yesterday. I do not believe there is a speed restriction at Eldee though. It's just Eldee at 8000.

hey, thanks for the feedback. Hopefully people can keep out of trouble. Eldee is 210kts if landing rwy 19. For some reason it doesn't show it on the gov' chart but its in the Jepps.

I had the boards out through 15 to make that...it is tight, but manageable even with 80kt tailwinds.

Yea its a tough one, if you miss one restriction your done for on the rest. I agree I always try to be smooth but I think that goes out the window in this situation especially when my ticket is on the line. Remember you can always just hand fly it and do what you gotta do, maybe brief the passengers ahead of time also.

I believe the arrival has become an RNAV arrival. I'll have to look, but I believe regs stipulate the autopilot flies it.

No, the just recommend that you use the autopilot to ensure compliance with the arrival.

If one is able to make the steps from CAPSS to POOCH to WZRRD (each of which is 1000ft in 4 miles), why is 8000 at ELDEE (2000ft in 12 miles) hard?

not a flame, just an honest question to elimitate my ignorance

Sometimes slowing down and going down at the same time in icing conditions is a bit of an issue because you have to leave power set somewhat high to maintain anti-icing effectiveness.

That's why I would recommend slowing a bit earlier to leave some wiggle room, especially with a tailwind, which is common. Your ground speed is high and you have to slow from maybe 300 to 250 and then to 210 by Eldee, all while descending and leaving power on for effective anti-ice protection.

It can be done, but it requires some thinking ahead and knowing what your airplane can do.

okay, I got that.... but the rate of descent is only two thirds of what it was on the previous stepdowns that (presumably) were made without trouble. is it the 250 below 10000 that is the difference?

i don't have the chart infront of me but aren't the descent and speed restrictions on the RAVEN arrivel into BWI a little tougher to do than the ELDEE?

The ELDEE arrival is not tough, but does require planning and thinking if you have 100kt tailwinds and icing conditions, something not entirely uncommon in winter.

Do the CRJs and ERJs have a VNAV (vertical nav.) function ?

Thx,

FF

An RNAV Arrival/SID can be hand-flown, and in some cases, should be hand-flown.

If you must rely on the Autopilot to properly fly an aircraft, you should take a moment of self-reflection. Not an attack on you, but on the basis of that statement.

The CRJ's have a neat little "banana" on the MFD that shows you where you will be reaching the selected altitude, as well as a "snowflake" on the PFD where you would normally find a G/S indicator. They cannot be Autopilot-coupled.

The ERJ's have just a purple indicator (same as a G/S indicator, just purple) on the PFD. This cannot be Autopilot-coupled either.

They are for guidance only, and are dependent on the information saved in the box (ie VNAV G/S-angle). If you have garbage in, garbage comes out. Ahhh...the beauty of automation.

CRJ's will give you a snowflake from the FMS, but the autopilot cannot fly vertical guidance given from the FMS.

After looking it up, I stand corrected. Depending on your company's operating procedures, RNAV procedures can be hand flown. In the case of the Eldee2 arrival, since it is an RNAV 1 procedure, one MUST use a lateral deviation indicator, flight director, and/or autopilot.

Dude that was an attack. Get off your high horse with respect to hand flying raw data. There is a lot going on while flying such an arrival or departure that needs to be managed. The autopilot/flight director are tools to lessen your workload so that you don't miss some other important factors (like miss a crossing restriction in a non-VNAV equiped airplane). Most of us don't see a need to keep going around blabbering about how Sierra Hotel we are. We fly the airplane and get the job done. I highly suggest you read this article from APC. You are coming arcross sounding like a punk kid pilot mill grad.

To answer your question, yes I am perfectly capable of flying said arrival by hand if need be. I generally don't hand fly during the arrivals though because both pilots tend to get task saturated. The PM is often busy getting the ATIS, calling in range, briefing the pax and FAs, and loading the approach(after the third runway change of course). Our SOP does not permit the PF to manipulate the guidance panel when hand flying (doesn't mean it doesn't happen) and he can't do all of those things at the same time. I'll throw my salvo back, you fly for SkyWest, have you ever operated in the Northeast in the winter?

easy fellas. Hand flying like you both said is no big deal. i like hand flying. we have 3 modes of automation that the company likes us to be proficient in. autopilot off, fd off. autopilot off, fd on. autopilot on, fd on. if it is a nice easy day taking off out of little ole mobile, al i will sometimes take off with no fd, or autopilot and fly it to 10k or so. then get bored and turn all the stuff on so i can finish my up down words. even if the weather was bad in mobile i wouldn't have a problem flying the plane around.

but if i am taking off or landing at an airport with marginal conditions i will turn on the autopilot at 600ft or keep it on if i am coming in to land. is it because i cant fly the departure/arrival, or the approach? no. it is common courtesy to the pilot monitoring. when things get busy the last thing i want the pm to do is be listening to me tell hime to bug headings, speeds, change modes for me, or any combination of the above.

so like i said it is common courtesy and a big help in the cockpit to be SMART and THINK about when would be a good time to go raw data and fly the plane around to when it is better to have the autopilot on. just think and be courtious to the guy you are flying with.

Bingo!

I typically hand-fly up through the mid-teens after takeoff, but then leave the autopilot on until I break out on an IAP. The biggest reason I wait so long on an approach is simply what you said: common courtesy. The PM is taking radio calls and concentrating on the approach as well. No need to unnecessarily ask that person to continually set things in for me when I could be lowering everyone's workload by letting the autopilot fly.

Also, it's just plain safe. While I'm perfectly capable of hand-flying an approach (as everyone qualified in the airplane should be), I recognize that there are 50 people sitting behind me who don't deserve to have pilots purposefully increasing their own workloads just to prove that they're hot sticks. I use every bit of automation available to me for that reason.

I'd help..but i have absolutely no idea how to read those silly naco's :)

kidding! i swear

I have never flown this, but i don't see the issue..you have WZZRD at 10,000, which is the last restriction before ELDEE 12 miles later at 8...2000 feet in 12 miles isn't anything significant...sounds like guys blasting at 250 for too long, then having to wait for a clean jet to slow up..

just what i gander.