Have you had Hawker SIC training in a sim or did you do it in the airplane?

I would love to see an ARG/US & Wyvern rating for the regionals. But since they don't get rated, I guess I'll never know.

Wait a second, are you actually the P.I.C. or are you just flying from the left seat on empty legs or something like that? It seems pretty amazing that a insurance company would sign you off as P.I.C. with 550tt and only 200 time in type. Now that I think of it, you must have gotten some sort of special waiver in order to get your ATP with 1/3 the required time.

I do think you're on to something when you say that total time isn't everything, however it sure helps to have some experience other than just the training it takes to get a commercial ticket.

Back when I was instructing, you had to have 500 multi to fly (teach in) the Duchess. Times have changed.

ATP?
You don't need an ATP to get typed. I've heard of people adding a 737 type to a PPL. Ofcourse this is only for part 91.

There is a little too much resentment for low time guys getting oppurtunity to fly jets at any level. I agree with getting the CFI and instructing before the regionals. As far as time qualifying you to fly a jet, you might as well toss that idea right out the window.

I was one of the lower time guys in my class when i got hired last year (500 & 200), but on IOE my instructor did not have to take the controls at all, and I was told that I flew the CRJ like an experienced crew member, no lie. Now this is not to toot my own horn here, this is just to prove the point that time means little compared to the quality of that time, proper preparation, and a little wit.

Ziggy, you're probably right, if i was a little bit less lazy, and way smarter, I should have looked that up.

CaribPilot, seriously not trying to flame here but I don't think anyone is questioning the flying abilities of any low timers. I think what is being called into question is the experiences of higher time pilots, which (sometimes) results in better desicision making skills when situations happen that are un-ordinary.

"I think what is being called into question is the experiences of higher time pilots, which (sometimes) results in better desicision making skills when situations happen that are un-ordinary."

Well said.

I agree with Don, as always.

My reference was not solely to stick and rudder skills, but to also a low time guy being able to make decisions in rough weather, maintenance issues, bad atc controlling, etc. Some guys, no matter how much time, still make wrong decisions on the fly, which is proven time and time again, even recently.

My point is: Dont look at time for how well can one make decisions, stick rudder skills or anything else related. Look at how the flying time was achieved, how much common sense that person has, how attentive they are, and how prepared they are for the situation they are entering, to gauge how well that person will perform.

Taking on what CaribPilot is saying, reminds of something someone once told me.

If you're going to say you have a 500 hours, 1000 hours, 10,000 hours you gotta act like it and fly like it. Anybody can write hours in a logbook, experience is very hard to measure, so as for a bottom line, if you have the confidence to write how many hours you've written in a logbook, better be prepared to exude that confidence in your flying to include your decision making abilities.

CaribPilot is correct by saying that it is not necessarily a given that a 10,000 hours pilot will always make a better decision than a 500 hours wonder boy/girl.

In my opinion, one is ready when one is able to exude the confidence required to perform his/her duties, and accept the responsibilities that come along with the better the decisions and the more poor ones. All the while being humble to a certain point.

Going back to the original poster's question. If you have to ask, maybe you should hang in there for a lil longer.... when you are ready make sure you act the part. [watch Chicago if you wanna get a good idea of how ppl in this world act their part... ;-)]

"not necessarily a given that a 10,000 hours pilot will always make a better decision than a 500 hours wonder boy/girl"

I think it's much more likely that the 10000 hour pilot will make better decisions most of the time. You have rare examples on each side of the spectrum that go both ways. In the end, there is no substitute for experience in making a more experienced pilot.

Very good point!!!!

Come on guys, he's got the radio telephone operator permit!

He's good to go!

Story time...

A TALE OF TWO NEWHIRES

Our characters:

Skippy, a 450 TT, 150 as CFI (which he didn't think was good experience for flying an airliner)

Capt. Jack, a grizzled, oldtimer with several thousand hours and a paper (before holograms) ATP certificate

Skippy and Jack were sim partners.

The first sim session, Jack handled the aircraft well, and his knowledge of the istrument enviornment impressed the instructor. On the other hand, Skippy was all over the sky: he was so far behind the aircraft, he couldn't enter a hold.

Over the next half dozen sim sessions, Jack's flying changed little as it was already ATP level, but he still learned much having never flown 121. Skippy, however, showed huge improvement... even to the point Jack had to admit the kid could handle the plane better than the old veteran.

At the end of the week of sims, both passed the checkride. And lived happily ever after.

The End

True story.... (I was Capt. Jack). When all was said and done, my partner flew as well or better than I did.
BUT, since he had never flown in all four seasons, or in different parts of the country, or any of the other "intangeables", he missed things like operating de/anti icing equipment, entering holds, choosing one procedure turn over another, adjusting speed/altitude/time to make crossing restrictions.... the stuff that I never had to think about. That is what one gets with experience.

The other thing people don't talk about much is not only the little (but important!) things like flyJSH (Capt. Jack) mentions is the ability or inability to communicate will with ATC. We operate in the NYC area alot and it is busy busy busy! Some of the new folks do have a learning curve when it comes to that stuff. If you just got your CFI at Joe's FBO out in the country it'll take a little while to get up to speed.

Anyway, everyone's been a newby at one point.

I love how people say "rant over" after their posts. Very poetic

I would recommend for you to get your CFI build some time then apply. It's up to you though and don't let anyone bring you down!

Are you ready for regional? My point of view is NO.

Can you go to a regional? Yes, you could.

Be careful, when making your choices. Good luck..

is it really that hard to fly for the regionals?

No, but I hear the training is very difficult.

It's the easiest job in the world when everything is going right. When it doesn't, well that is when you learn about 121 - whether you are a hot-shot wonder-kid, or a seasoned CFI with thousands of hours. Experience to fly a Jet cannot come from the right seat of a Cessna.

yeah! especially when you(or should I say, "I") forget to turn the autocoarsen off while reducing the power levers! :D

if you can come to NH and show me how to start a plane when its 6 degrees out...then you're ready...

you mean the ctot?

waiver for ATP??????????????
 

"Wait a second, are you actually the P.I.C. or are you just flying from the left seat on empty legs or something like that? It seems pretty amazing that a insurance company would sign you off as P.I.C. with 550tt and only 200 time in type. Now that I think of it, you must have gotten some sort of special waiver in order to get your ATP with 1/3 the required time."


I believe that you are not as knowlegable about the aviation field as you might think that you are-your post above clearly makes my point. you still never answered my question earlier about if you were in the avaition insurance biz?
No where does it say(maybe 121 - not my field) that you are required to hold an ATP in order to obtain a PIC Type Rating, -(Flight Safety Int. sure didnt think so when I obtained my type.) or that there are restrictions about when you are able to operate the A/C with pax on board(besides FAR 61.57/61.58). A person who is the sole manipulator of the flight controls and makies ALL command decisions regarding the flight is the PIC. Yes I have been the PIC while flying all over North,Central and South America with every seat in the A/C filled.

I do not participate in this forum to fight with people about things-but I do want to make sure that the facts are correct and that someone doesnt go through this industry believing something just because "someone" told them thats how it goes.

For the gentlemen that started the thread I think you have worried alot of people here because of the way you asked the question-But If someone with the authority to give you a type rating PIC or SIC believes you are capable of flying a Hawker and gives you a type, than by all means you are ready to fly an RJ. As Im sure you have already done so far in your career study hard and have the drive to do well and you'll have no problems at any stage of this game. Once again GOOD LUCK!

ooops...uh.. ya! that's what I meant...duh!!!

APC is the only place that i hear to get experience is to get a cfi


EVERYWHERE OUTSIDE OF APC (AND I MEAN EVERYWHERE!!!!) from my family and friends to co-workers and random pilots that fly into the FBO i work at, SAY GET IN AS SOON AS YOU CAN NO MATTER HOW LOW TIME YOU HAVE! I hear this pilots from every field of flying from: xjet, american, continental, ae, republic, flight options, net jets, citationshares, airnet, ameriflight, to flight instructors and chief pilots at the training facilities at the airport.

i guess my point is, take things as a grain of salt (though i love the advice on apce!!)

It does seem that hiring has slowed, but it is the winter months, it should pick up again during the summer. As for everyones advice to CFI, I completely agree with that, even if it is short term. From my experience being a CFI definitely will increase your proficiency as a pilot and will increase your confidence heading into an airline job. The fact that you are there, maybe not even with your hands on the controls all that often, but being in the right seat teaching a private pilot student how to fly will make you a better pilot. You will for once be the one making the decisions and experiencing situations you have never experienced before and you will carry those experiences with you throughout the rest of your life. So even if you just do it for 6 months, pick up 500 dual given or so, it will make you a much more proficient and confident pilot. Just my .02

"APC is the only place that i hear to get experience is to get a cfi"

Have you tried Jetcareers?

In any case, I disagree with you and my experience has been quite different.

my best buddy was hired at 220/25... breezed through training and completed IOE in a shade under 30 hours i believe. his IOE captain told him he was a natural... so for anyone to say low time guys are not ready or unsafe is a joke... bumping around the desert in a 152 building hours doesnt make one any better at flying... and if at 1000TT you still feel like youre not ready for a CRJ, than youre probably just not that good.

the sooner the crop dusters and traffic watchers get over their jealousy of guys that made it to a jet without having to drive a cessna around for 3 years the happier we'll all be. ya there's some low time guys out there that have no business being airline pilots and the majority of them if lucky enough to get hired wash out rather quickly; but im tired of hearing how dangerous and irresponsible it is... some of us might actually have talent.

I like it, tzadik...

You're missing the point. I don't think many here will argue there are plenty of low time guys who are a natural stick and can get through training/sim. It's what happens when things become non-standard/emergengy procedures... how you will act when **** hits the fan. That ability can only be gained by experience. I had no emergencies to speak of under 250 hours, but when I was hired by a regional with 900/200, I had dealt with gear problems, an engine failure, various electrical problems, ect.

Also, how did your buddy get hired by anyone without commercial mins?

So how do you explain the 10K hour veteran Pilot who "freezes..." and the hot-shot newbie who takes control of the situation? It happens, to pretend that it doesn't is ignorant. You're either born with it or you're not. Experience helps, but it is not the end-all, be-all that some claim it to be...

better that experience be gained sitting next to a high time captain rather than infront of a banner pinging down the beachfront.

special 141 school ;)

Yep...Quality over Quantity ;)

I'm not about to argue that it doesn't happen, but I'd say that scenario is far more the exception than the norm.

Hazardous Attitude....Machoism


Antidote...The old guy with thick log book is probably right (paraphrased)

"So how do you explain the 10K hour veteran Pilot who "freezes..." and the hot-shot newbie who takes control of the situation?"

That's laughable. Dream on....

Not saying it doesn't happen, but my money is on the reverse happening 90% of the time.

What are these "superb" pilots born with. I have met some very good stick and rudder pilots but I never have met one that knew how to handle all different emergency situations.

This idea that some how we have been blessed with this innate nature to handle every catastrophic problem is disturbing.

After reading through all 8 of these pages I have seen every hazardous attitude that we are suppossed to guard against. What ever happened to the idea that everyday is a learning experience. When you think that you have arrived...whether in the left/right seat of a shiny tube or a single pilot in alaskan cargo fly by night operation. If you ever allow yourself to slip into this mindset, you are just asking for problems to occur.