agreed, im just tired of the goblers around here *****in and moanin about how those of us that didnt shadow I-95 at rush hour are less qualified... smart pilots do take it one day at a time and learn from every experience and everyonce in a while get humbled by a mistake.... i just fail to see the connection between increased C152 hours and ones ability to better handle an IDG disconnect.

I tried applying with Pinnacle. I have 520TT, 125ME of which 100 is ME Turbine. And I have a 4 year Bachelor degree in Aviation. Turbine time is Part 135 under UPS Contract. She started the phone interview, the 1st question was, "What is your TT and ME time". I said "520TT and 125ME". She responded with. "We're looking for 1000TT and 100ME. Maybe contact us again when you reach those times". After the phone call I was thinking, why did you even call me, my flight times on in the application I made. Don't get it.

i'm with skycaptain on this one. I've met, flown with, and trained guys who have more "natural" stick and rudder ability than others, myself included. I've always considered myself to be a competent aviator, intelligent, and pretty poised with thinking myself through a situation, and in the other side of my mind, i think "You're not bad, but you're not the best stick in the world". I think it's only natural to wonder if a person is "ready" for the 121 world, and it's good to have the question, shows that you're doing some self evaluation, looking in the site and getting feedback from others (especially those already involved in the industry you're intending on joining) also shows some good judgment.

Do i think that every pilot out there with 220/25 me is going to rock it out in the jet? NO, do i even think that the vast majority of pilots out there with that experience level are ready for the jet? NO....only reason i say that is when i was instructing individuals with 220hrs, they were having a hard enough time getting a lazy eight done to standards. Now i know that flying a CRJ/ERJ isn't the same as doing commercial maneuvers, but the point would be if you can't show mastery of control of the skychicken, what makes you think you'll be able to show mastery of control in the jet...

On a different note, the only time having the "low time pilot" in the right seat of the RJ is really going to make a rather large difference is when the situation is an emergency or "abnormal" and the captain is either mediocre, unsafe, or incompetent, by the time the LTP has enough time to feel comfortable in the airplane, he'll most likely be just as safe as the guy with 1500-2000 TT. Another thought, if you're in an emergency situation, with a lackluster captain, would you rather have a guy next to him who's flown single pilot night cargo for 3 years, or a pilot factory graduate? Whether it'd actually make a difference or not, eh, u can choose.

good post flynavyj, i agree with almost all of it...

whos more qualified to be in the right seat though... a pilot factory graduate with 300TT, crm and adavanced jet training dealing with V1 cuts, engine fires, and rapid decomps or a 600TT cessna 206 night time box flyer. dont get me wrong there's nothing bad about box hauling across kansas, but for some to make these blanket statements that some guy with 391TT is fooling himself if he thinks he might be ready for 121 is flat out ridiculous.

and yes, we lower time guys do work at whats commenly reffered to as "less than desirable regionals"... i understand the game and i made the descision to take a job now and build time in a jet rather than teaching steep turns and slow flight to get to a place that pays $2 more an hour and might only kick me in the groin once every other week.

There is truth in the pilot mills turning out airline pilots. From day one they are training to be an airline pilot. This model can and has been debateable.
but..(I hate to admit this) if you do have the cash and want to get left seat in a SNJ than the pilot mill is definetly the quickest and you probably will be able to fly "safe" in a 121 operation.

However, you probably didn't get all four fundamentals of learning.
Hint - RUAC

I was a crop duster for a long time.I still do it on a part time/fill in basis.I dont know if your comment was directed at me,but I will assure you that I am not jealous of a low time regional pilot.I do have lots of time,and no,it probably doesnt amount to much as far as flying a Regional jet,but i have seen just about anything,emergency wise,that you can see in the ag environment.In other words,I have big time experience,in my chosen field.No,I have no experience in 121,So my question to you is ,Why would i be jealous of a RJ pilot.I do not understand why you would group me into this thread. I really dont give a ****.I just read these threads for the entertainment.

DO they or do they not teach you guys how to deal with the emergency's that your aircraft could experience when you are in training. I sure know that I did alot of emergency checklists and procedures in that sim before I was ever given a type. You learn how to deal with emergency situations in the sim on your Particular a/c that you will be flying-I myself would rather have a so called Pilot Mill guy that was put through difficult training and training that is based on what we are actually going to be doing in this buisness-fly in the instrument environment than a person who has been buzzing around in class E airspace doing lazy eights.

Bottom line is, the guys that have been CFI's and had to do thousands of hrs of that to finally get a jet job are never going to be happy for a guy who can go out and get a job in a jet almost right out of school-they are always going to come at them with the I have more experience than you do line of BS-

Pilots need quality time and not quanity!!!!!

a) i wasnt lumping you into anything as ive never seen your post or name before

b) i too dont give a ;), if youre happy doing what your doing thats awesome, i chose not to spend my time wondering why someone is or isnt content... im commenting on the guys that use similar jobs to yours for the purpose of getting to a jet then tell me and my pilot mill buddies (when we've been studying epc's, cfm's, checklists, regs, and gom's from day 1) that we're not welcome in the 121 world.

I hear that pilot mill guys can fly the heck out of the sim!:rolleyes:

Pinnacle's HR department (the whole airline's management really) is what we call in the business a CLUSTERBUCK! Don't take it personally. I think I would have laughed if she said that to me and asked her if she had any idea what the current hiring environment was like. But no, good on her trying to think Pinnacle can still attract the 1000/100 crowd.:D

I think the argument was that anyone with half a brain can follow a checklist. Its more about what happens when the situation you find yourself in does not neatly conform to one of the little emergencies you practiced in the sim and have a neat little checklist for. For example, a medical emergency. Land at nearest suitable airport, right? Ok, medical emergency over the mountains of central Mexico on an international flight. Little more complex now, isn't it.

T-cart - Right on. I wonder if you have to be a "good stick" five feet off the ground at 150kts+ in an Air Tractor holding 500 gallons of chemical? Wonder if you have to be any good to land that same airplane in a bad crosswind. Flying under wires?

Good post.

Nah...but I bet all that sim time sure makes it so much easier....:D

I dont see how anyone other than guys that come out of pilot mills can get hired with extremely low time. I have tried and tried; I am working on my CFI right now and should be finished soon. My whole goal is to work at a regional airline, and I am becoming a CFI because of that. If I could get there sooner I would definitely take it. I have low time with 270/70 and I haven't gotten a response to anything i have sent in; I take that back... Colgan sent me an e-mail telling me to get more time, but they hired a buddy of mine with 300/100. Weird.

I am not complaining or anything, it just seems so random. People say that you can get hired with comm/multi cert., but I really believe those guys are few and far between.

I say yes those guys are few and far in between. PSA regrets hiring a few of those guys and seems to be going back up with their unpublished minimums. The problem, they lack the experience to be professional on the job I hear.

To the original poster: A lot depends on what you are looking for. You could probably get on with one of the lower tier regionals (lower tier meaning lower QOL), but I would try to gain more experience and get enough time to be competitive for something better. And like others have posted, that extra experience will come in handy. I was hired with a regional at 2000/800, the majority of it instruction in light twins/singles, and the flight experience did not help much when it came to sim training, as flying a jet is quite different. But as far as emergency situations and delegating tasks, following procedures, etc in a crew environment, it helped alot. Out on the line my past experiences have proven more valuable. Best of luck.

this discussion is getting old, 1/4 of the posts on the "regional" thread are about low timers and how the higher timers think they are not ready, the point is thats how things are right now, and 5 years ago when it was 1500/500, thats how things were then. Who knows what its gonna be 5 years from now, hell 1 month from now. someday the minimums might be 3000/1000 and they'll be saying that 1500/500 wasn't experienced enough they should cfi some more...

...the point is that this is a trend and everyone who is lucky enough to get hired as a low timer should enjoy it before they raise the minimums again.

Hey, if it wasn't for low-timers and Mesa-bashing, what else would be have to talk about? :D

Here is some food for thought. "You're only one bird strike away from a battlefield promotion to Captain. Do you feel ready for that responsibility?"

Imagine it: You're making a night time, full-procedure ILS approach into a special airport that is nestled in between two mountain ranges. You've just past the FAF and have made the final configuration changes. You start down the pipe very stabilized. About 20 seconds past the FAF, the windshield shatters in front of the Captain. You've taken a bird through the windshield. In the hysteria that follows, you realize that your #1 engine is winding down as you ear the tell-tale signs of an engine coughing with severe engine damage. The remainder of the flock that didn't go into your windshield - found your left engine. The wind noise is horrendous. The captain is unresponsive to your repeated shouts for assistance. Your ILS starts to look more like a sword fight rather than a stabilized approach. Your airspeed begins to drop like a rock and you can't figure out why it's falling? You're now flying a CRJ, single-pilot and with only one engine turning. Then you think that you're still configued for a twin-engine approach and that you aren't configured for a single engine approach. You elect to make a missed approach. You finally get the aircraft to some degree - stabilized. You're able to hold altitude when all of the sudden you hear your sim instructor in the back of your mind yelling: "TOGA, GO AROUND THRUST, FLAPS 8, POSITIVE RATE, GEAR UP, SPEED MODE, BUG V2, WHITE NEEDLES, AUTO-TUNE, GOOD PICTURE, NAV!" Your training saves the day on this missed approach. You finally get configured as you limp into your climb. You finally get everything established and enable the auto-pilot. You hit enroute speed, level off, bring the flaps up and climb toward your missed approach fix. You enter the published hold and complete the appropriate checklists. You brief the cabin crew of the situation, the type of landing they should expect and if there is going to be a planned evacuation upon landing. Since you have your hands full, you request that ATC relay a message to your company regarding your situation. You request that ATC get the fire equipment and ambulances rolling for your pending approach. All check lists are now complete. You take a deep breath and leave the fix inbound for the toughest approach and landing of your very short career......do you feel ready?

In your answer to this scenario, I think you'll find the answer to your question...

Never be afraid to put in the hard work to get where you are going. It's good to do the tough work in your career. It helps remind you where you've been and where you're going. There are a lot of lessons learned in the first 1500 hours of total time...even more if you have been an instructor during that time.

bustinmins - semi-stabilized and beyond the FAF, I probably would have landed her ;)

"Your ILS starts to look more like a sword fight rather than a stabilized approach." (Implying unstable approach)

However - if stabilized, I agree with you. ;)

LoL...you're talkin' all crazy about sword fights and airplanes and bird-strikes eek!! Haha...:D

LOL!! Well back in the day this was but a minor situation. (sarcasm)

I'm old enough to remember when sex was fun and motorcycles were dangerous...what can I say?

Not to belittle your scenario in our guffaws - what you actually said is true. I think it boils down to maturity in aircraft which may be different than actual hours in logbook

Maturity in aircraft has a lot to do with it whether you have 5000TT or 300TT....agreed. The fact remains and it is a constant: "All 300 hour pilots make 300 hour pilot mistakes." You can't get around that issue. You remove the automation and it is amazingly clear just how "at risk" you are. While I support the 300 hour pilots coming up through the ranks, I think many would benefit from a year or two of instructing before moving on up the food chain. The end product of pilot is a much better pilot. I'm not saying that the 300 hour fast trackers don't make good captains. However, the former CFI's make much better captains. Why? They've actually taken an airplane away from someone? They can see an accident chain beginning where as someone who hasn't seen it will be less "in tune" to its development. The CFI's have developed skills that will help them deal with the many personality types they are likely to encounter "on the line". They know how to lead and they know how to teach....both are extremely important skills for a captain to have.

I couldn't agree more. While young(23) and straight out of college, I did come to the airlines with more experience than what has become the norm (2000T,600M,1200DualGiven). I was very thankful for the experience and judgement I gained in my time as an instructor and additionally flying single pilot corporate throughout the Rocky Mountains, Southern US and Mexico in light twins. It paid off in a recent situation which I won't discuss on a public venue. Thats why there are two pilots in airliners, you aren't there to learn the basics. It's checks and balances, you're there to make sure the other pilot doesn't screw up and vice versa and you need the experience to make the tough decisions.

I would have gone around, logged another .3 to bolster my pay as a form of hazard pay, then basked in the fact that I just moved up a number due to the Capt's untimely demise.

Consider the alter-ego of this questions' thread. What do you do if you're an F/O and your flying with a Capt with thousands of hours less experience than you.

I have more opinions, but this is one I'm enjoying from the sideline.

FF

Aren't motorcycles still dangerous?! But anyway, the way I figure, if I fly an Airplane the way I ride my bike, everybody gets to "B" safe and happy. My motorcycle, by the way, doesn't have auto-throttles or an Autopilot. :D

Sex was fun, cant wait to tell the wife.:D

I am curious about the CFI recommendations.

I understand the kind of skills that being a CFI will build, and how they can be applied to the 121 world. Here's my question: After a certain amount of time being a CFI (say passing a few people through checkrides), wouldn't it be better to move to something else and try to build time in a more challenging aircraft?

The way I am seeing it put out here is that a lot of you are suggesting building all your time before jets as a CFI. The way I see it, CFI will only get you so far, and definitely will not give you very much experience flying a complex high performance aircraft.

There has to be a point where building experience in a twin is going to trump building experience CFIing in a 172. I understand about MEI and CFII being good experience along those lines, but I still see those as being limiting. They leave out a middle step on the way to flying a jet (at least that's the picture that I am getting).

Once you get 500 hours, try to find a 135 company that flies checks and see if you can fly for them VFR only. I got some good BE55 and C402 time that way. Just be careful who you work for. Do some homework on the company, pilot group, management and maintenance before you climb aboard. I didn't do that, and I learned a valuable lesson in ethics.

Try Air Cargo Carriers. I am a new F/O for them. It is a long way from glorious. But it gets your low time up to competitive. I got hired in Dec with 421TT and 26ME. Today I have 533TT and 138ME. I have now have interviews scheduled with regionals and a major. What BoilerWings says is correct, but just to add to it at ACC you can log ME Turbine and make captain when you reach 1200TT. Its not for everyone, I am trying to get out, but I wouldnt have received this opportunity if I didnt take ACC's offer. http://www.aircar.com/acci

I didn't know that majors are looking at 533TT and 138ME. What the hell am I doing flying for an regional.

Ahem.... and which major do you have an interview at with 533 hours?

Probably enough people have said you should get some more flight experience. Instructing is definitely the way to go, and based solely on your flight times you could instruct. As with any flying job, hours only mean so much. There are many other aspects to look at when considering someone for pilot position. The industry has really changed. In my newhire class in October my 1200 TT put me near the top of the class as far as Total Time experience goes. While you could probably get hired with your times now, it would most definitely be worth your while to do some instruction, especially some in IMC and some at night. I feel like people who skip the CFI/CFII steps are really missing out on some great learning experiences.

Instructing is "a" (as in, one of many) way to go. Don't limit yourself there...

can you walk my resume in?

It's not about a number. It's how well you fly the aircraft, fly instruments, your knowledge of regulations, aircraft systems, weather, and your companies FOM. The other pilots in my class had more flight time than me. From 700 to 3000 hours with Part 121 experience, I had 421TT and 26ME. 4 of them pink slipped and 3 were kicked to the curb. Others were given a second chance on their ride. The check airman said it was one of the best checkrides he had seen in awhile. It's not about your total time, its about how you are as a pilot! You brought up something that pinched a nerve. Total time is just a number that fulfills the check boxes of airline applications. Lets not forget "the real" reason pilots become CFI's. They do it to get free flight time so they can get a flying job with typically a regional. Well I already fly a multi engine turbine, why should I take steps backwards? You sound jealous. The aviation market is different today. If my timing was 3 years ago I would be flight instructing.

So if you have 1200TT and another has 400TT, does that mean your 3 times as smart as the other? I believe it comes from the training you received, and the knowledge your able to retain.

I understand that referrals are really important on getting the job. 80% of my classmates got the job for who they knew in the company. I was the only 1 out of 12 that had a simulator evaluation. And that bothers me. If I knew you and I could vouch for what kind of person you are, your character, and your piloting knowledge, I would. I applied on their internet site and it worked out for me. I give you luck. Just remember why your coming to ACC. I am trying to leave after a month. I guarantee you, you will not see the sun during the winter. You will become a raccoon.