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Why 21?
I am sure some people are going to rant and rave about this one, and I don't really give a rip.
But, myself and some others I know are 20, flight instructing, and can't go to a few of the regionals because they want you to be 21. Why is this. I understand if they would guarantee an upgrade in two years so that you would be 23, but I don't really get it. You can work at Horizon, ExpressJet, Republic and be 20, but you can't work at skywest, or even mesa? thanks. |
So you can drink on layovers, obviously. :D
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Originally Posted by md11phlyer
(Post 309556)
So you can drink on layovers, obviously. :D
330am... I need a life... |
Originally Posted by Diver Driver
(Post 309568)
Yep... everyone knows that's how you get signed off from IOE... you have to buy your IOE CA's drinks!! :D
330am... I need a life... Your future is in cargo....... Purple or Brown...... :D
Originally Posted by Flyboyrw
(Post 309554)
I am sure some people are going to rant and rave about this one, and I don't really give a rip.
But, myself and some others I know are 20, flight instructing, and can't go to a few of the regionals because they want you to be 21. Why is this. I understand if they would guarantee an upgrade in two years so that you would be 23, but I don't really get it. You can work at Horizon, ExpressJet, Republic and be 20, but you can't work at skywest, or even mesa? thanks. |
I know Mesa, on the Beech side has quite a few FO's that are under 20. Don't really know about the jet side. I'd just hang out one more year, or go get your degree. That always helps.
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Originally Posted by Flyboyrw
(Post 309554)
I am sure some people are going to rant and rave about this one, and I don't really give a rip.
But, myself and some others I know are 20, flight instructing, and can't go to a few of the regionals because they want you to be 21. Why is this. I understand if they would guarantee an upgrade in two years so that you would be 23, but I don't really get it. You can work at Horizon, ExpressJet, Republic and be 20, but you can't work at skywest, or even mesa? thanks. |
I ran up against the same issue. I was told that the reason was for the ATP written (HR's reason). Some older CA's said it was because people were going to canada (layovers) and drinking too much and getting sick so the company just uses 21 in hopes of maturity. Personally I have flown with 40-50 year olds who drink way too much so I think its up to the person.
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its gotta be a maturity thing... while some teenagers are rather precocious... the majority are not.
i for one can honestly say at 19 or 20 i wasn’t even remotely ready for the responsibilities of this job. i know some under 21 pilots and its just sad to see... i would kill for what some of these guys have and they're either too naive or just too dumb to see it. No debt because pops paid for flight training... most of them live in apartments and drive trucks paid for by pops still. I mean if they were to play their cards right they'd be at a major by the time they were 26, which just happens to be the year i got into the regional’s. I’m positive there is some under 21ers out there (perhaps yourself) that are more than ready for the job but the reality of the situation is the majority are not and id be shocked if the masses on this forum would tell you looking back that they would have been ready for the responsibility at 19. |
It is a double edge sword really. If you can get in really young then you are set to be in the top of the seniority list, but on the other hand if you get hired on at 20 you will have 45 years in the airline business. That might sound good now, but do you really want to be doing this for 45 years?
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FWIW, I've seen someone get hired under 20 years old at SkyWest (which has the 21 year min. age requirement).
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Why 21? Here is why...
(from another board) So, I'm flying with a 'kid' this month (JUST turned 21) who thinks he is God's gift to women. He has one thing to talk about while flying.....that's women. How many he is currently dating, how many he's slept with, how many he wants to sleep with, how many want to sleep with him, how he picks them up, etc.... I could keep going with that. http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/...s/rolleyes.gif He is, by no means, an attractive guy....but he does have the ability to talk to women. Nevertheless, enough already. I DON'T CARE! In an effort to talk about 'anything' else. I start a conversation about our upcoming vote for representation this Aug. and ask him how he voted this past year. He tells me he didn't vote, not because he doesn't want a union.....he told me he didn't care. Perplexed, I asked him how it is he doesn't care about his career and the industry. His reply: this isn't his career. He doesn't plan on staying here very long. I said don't say anything when management starts imposing their will upon the pilot group. At this point, I'm starting to get aggravated. Ok, let me get this straight, you didn't vote because this isn't your career and you don't care. Hmmm, ok, got it. So I ask him if he understood what happens at one airline, affects all airlines. After a little explaining, he gets that point...supposedly. Unfortunately, being 21 and knowing 'everything' he still isn't planning on voting for the union in '08 because he's not changing his mind about this company not being 'his career.' Oh, this isn't over yet......now comes the kicker...... So, I ask if this isn't your career, where are you planning on going. His answer, SkyBus.....he needs Airbus time so he can get a job at Emirates. I tell him about SkyBus being a bottom-feeder and how company's like them bring the entire industry down. His answer.....so what! He said, his words not mine, I don't care about anyone else, this is what he needs to do to further his career. At this point, I wanted to reach for the crash ax and just bash his head in. I told him we needed to stop talking right now or my head was going to explode. http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/smilies/mad.gif So I ask him what he's doing over our 4-days off this week. Surprise, he's going to Cancun to pick up women and bang as many as he can.........OMG, get me out of here. This is yet another reason why kids don't belong up front in transport aircraft. Go and get life experience, then come talk to me. And to think I am flying w/ this person the entire month of January. |
I wish I could have been instructing when I was 20 rather than not starting until 22. I would have had more than enough time to go to the regional of my choice (where I start next week) versus spending a few months at one I had no desire of staying at.
I hope you're also in college and getting some sort of 4 year degree. Enjoy your youth. You have the rest of your life to work. |
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
(Post 309682)
I hope you're also in college and getting some sort of 4 year degree. Enjoy your youth. You have the rest of your life to work. When I was 20 I was in College having the time of my life. Why do you want to make the jump to the working world, esp the indentured servitude that is the Regional FO? Also, if you don't have your 4 year degree, you will have plenty of time at a regional after you get hired, like your whole career. |
Originally Posted by CRJDriver
(Post 309673)
Why 21? Here is why...
(from another board) So, I'm flying with a 'kid' this month (JUST turned 21) who thinks he is God's gift to women. He has one thing to talk about while flying.....that's women. How many he is currently dating, how many he's slept with, how many he wants to sleep with, how many want to sleep with him, how he picks them up, etc.... I could keep going with that. http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/...s/rolleyes.gif He is, by no means, an attractive guy....but he does have the ability to talk to women. Nevertheless, enough already. I DON'T CARE! In an effort to talk about 'anything' else. I start a conversation about our upcoming vote for representation this Aug. and ask him how he voted this past year. He tells me he didn't vote, not because he doesn't want a union.....he told me he didn't care. Perplexed, I asked him how it is he doesn't care about his career and the industry. His reply: this isn't his career. He doesn't plan on staying here very long. I said don't say anything when management starts imposing their will upon the pilot group. At this point, I'm starting to get aggravated. Ok, let me get this straight, you didn't vote because this isn't your career and you don't care. Hmmm, ok, got it. So I ask him if he understood what happens at one airline, affects all airlines. After a little explaining, he gets that point...supposedly. Unfortunately, being 21 and knowing 'everything' he still isn't planning on voting for the union in '08 because he's not changing his mind about this company not being 'his career.' Oh, this isn't over yet......now comes the kicker...... So, I ask if this isn't your career, where are you planning on going. His answer, SkyBus.....he needs Airbus time so he can get a job at Emirates. I tell him about SkyBus being a bottom-feeder and how company's like them bring the entire industry down. His answer.....so what! He said, his words not mine, I don't care about anyone else, this is what he needs to do to further his career. At this point, I wanted to reach for the crash ax and just bash his head in. I told him we needed to stop talking right now or my head was going to explode. http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/smilies/mad.gif So I ask him what he's doing over our 4-days off this week. Surprise, he's going to Cancun to pick up women and bang as many as he can.........OMG, get me out of here. This is yet another reason why kids don't belong up front in transport aircraft. Go and get life experience, then come talk to me. And to think I am flying w/ this person the entire month of January. I'm looking at your display picture right now, you obviously have no interest in women... Youre just jelous;). heck... i am. But on a more serious note, pilots are more than just drivers, they are the face of the buissness. Appearrance and demeanor is very important for the brittle layer of confidence the passengers have in us. Personality is very important, moreso than age. Some 20y old are ready. some aren't |
boohoo. im still p***ed that you dont have to get you 1000/100 anymore like i worked my a** off to do before i could go to an airline.
earn it like the rest of us (and passing your CPL at 250 hrs doesnt count) |
I don't feel age should matter. If you can have a 4-yr degree and 1000+ hours you should be able to go to a regional. You know going in you are going to be an FO for at least 2 years (age 23 min) and you have proven over the last 3 years that you are a driven person who puts priorities straight. Sure age can matter but many times a resume can show how someone is as a person. For someone to be under 21 and applying you MOST LIKELY graduated under 4 years in college and put flying as a top priority. It can definately be done. There are many people much older than 21 who act extremely immature. Age is only a number IMO.
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Originally Posted by Flyboyrw
(Post 309554)
I am sure some people are going to rant and rave about this one, and I don't really give a rip.
But, myself and some others I know are 20, flight instructing, and can't go to a few of the regionals because they want you to be 21. Why is this. I understand if they would guarantee an upgrade in two years so that you would be 23, but I don't really get it. You can work at Horizon, ExpressJet, Republic and be 20, but you can't work at skywest, or even mesa? thanks. |
I am fully aware (by experience) that there is a vast experience gap between 300 hour wet-commercial and a 1500 CFI/MEI. But this guy has a point...I think any of us would have taken a job at 300 hours if available. But hopefully not at mesa/gojet...
Personally I think both CA's and FO's should have an ATP. But I would have a lot higher comfort level with a 30 year-old 300 hour pilot, as opposed to a 20 year-old. |
I talked with a 54year old 777 Cpt. the other day and he said he was hired straight out of college with 200hrs and 10multi directly in to the 727. (Braniff) This isn't the first time there's been a pilot shortage and the airlines have done what they had to fill seats. Question is.... Has safety been jeopardized? History says no...... I just don't get it, why are people so mad at low time pilots?
Cited from http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2001/feb01p18.htm The jet boom (1965–1968) People like Juan Trippe of Pan Am and Howard Hughes of TWA had no intention of inaugurating a pilot shortage when they began buying jets in the late 1950s. But these whisper-quiet magic carpets caught on quickly with a newly affluent flying public, beginning an era of glamorous travel, with Sinatra crooning "Come Fly With Me" in the background. The airlines hired pilots as fast as they ordered jets. United famously hired zero-time college graduates and paid for their training—from scratch! |
Originally Posted by CRJDriver
(Post 309673)
Why 21? Here is why...
(from another board) So, I'm flying with a 'kid' this month (JUST turned 21) who thinks he is God's gift to women. He has one thing to talk about while flying.....that's women. How many he is currently dating, how many he's slept with, how many he wants to sleep with, how many want to sleep with him, how he picks them up, etc.... I could keep going with that. http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/...s/rolleyes.gif He is, by no means, an attractive guy....but he does have the ability to talk to women. Nevertheless, enough already. I DON'T CARE! In an effort to talk about 'anything' else. I start a conversation about our upcoming vote for representation this Aug. and ask him how he voted this past year. He tells me he didn't vote, not because he doesn't want a union.....he told me he didn't care. Perplexed, I asked him how it is he doesn't care about his career and the industry. His reply: this isn't his career. He doesn't plan on staying here very long. I said don't say anything when management starts imposing their will upon the pilot group. At this point, I'm starting to get aggravated. Ok, let me get this straight, you didn't vote because this isn't your career and you don't care. Hmmm, ok, got it. So I ask him if he understood what happens at one airline, affects all airlines. After a little explaining, he gets that point...supposedly. Unfortunately, being 21 and knowing 'everything' he still isn't planning on voting for the union in '08 because he's not changing his mind about this company not being 'his career.' Oh, this isn't over yet......now comes the kicker...... So, I ask if this isn't your career, where are you planning on going. His answer, SkyBus.....he needs Airbus time so he can get a job at Emirates. I tell him about SkyBus being a bottom-feeder and how company's like them bring the entire industry down. His answer.....so what! He said, his words not mine, I don't care about anyone else, this is what he needs to do to further his career. At this point, I wanted to reach for the crash ax and just bash his head in. I told him we needed to stop talking right now or my head was going to explode. http://forums.jetcareers.com/images/smilies/mad.gif So I ask him what he's doing over our 4-days off this week. Surprise, he's going to Cancun to pick up women and bang as many as he can.........OMG, get me out of here. This is yet another reason why kids don't belong up front in transport aircraft. Go and get life experience, then come talk to me. And to think I am flying w/ this person the entire month of January. |
lol yeah that kid sounds like me a little bit, cept for the not attractive part ;)
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Its a touchy subject. I think the age is a bit of a deterent when it comes to making tough decisions. Sure the 1500+ hour CFI will have a better grasp on making good pilot decisions but I'd certainly feel much better if the guy up front wasn't still dripping behind the ears. Say what you will about hours and experience but LIFE itself gives you just as much real world knowledge and experience.
I know at 20, 21, 22 years old I was nowhere NEAR ready to sit up front in a transport category aircraft. |
It is another way to weed out people without a college degree. You basically can't get a college degree before you are 21, so that plays into the decision.
You have your entire life to fly for an airline. Go to college. Enjoy being 19,20,21,22... you still have 40+ years of airline flying. Why is everyone in a rush to go to a regional. Because it will get you to a major faster... NOT without a college degree. It won't do you any good without a college degree. |
Originally Posted by Joeshmoe
(Post 309846)
Its a touchy subject. I think the age is a bit of a deterent when it comes to making tough decisions. Sure the 1500+ hour CFI will have a better grasp on making good pilot decisions but I'd certainly feel much better if the guy up front wasn't still dripping behind the ears. Say what you will about hours and experience but LIFE itself gives you just as much real world knowledge and experience.
I know at 20, 21, 22 years old I was nowhere NEAR ready to sit up front in a transport category aircraft. |
Originally Posted by keiundraj
(Post 309859)
Age as it applies to decision making skills still have no relevance IMO. At age 25 I've seen better decisions be made by people younger people than guys way older than I. I'm sure there's some 18, 19, 20 year old kids who's had to make tougher decisions in life than most 29year olds? Alot of people lives these days are guided by parents, peers, magazines and what other suggest.
Candidates for President, on average, tend to be much older because the feeling is the stately, older person has more experience in life to make the important decisions. Listen, I'm not here to bash the early 20 something pilots. I've flown with some folks in their very early 20's that were really solid in their skills and decisions. All I'm saying is that history has shown us that experience gained over years, decades, better prepares us for the extreme challenges that life seems to like to throw at us. Again, there are acceptions to the rule. |
Unfortunately its folks like that kid that give us "young guys" a bad rap. I got my first airline job just after turning 21. I have never had an issues. I got hired with 1200 hrs 200 multi. I have an ATP now that I'm 23. Bottom some can do it some can't. I feel like when I fly with the older guys(50ish) I get labled as some kid with 500hrs. Until we get to know each and get they get some background info its like they don't trust me to make decisions. Kinda strange. Maybe its because I'm ultra quiet person. I don't say too much. Flying with guys in there 30's and 40's its never been any issues. Unfortunately I don't think we get any younger than 35 or so for capts at Eagle. Just my two cents FWIW
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Originally Posted by kansas
(Post 309671)
FWIW, I've seen someone get hired under 20 years old at SkyWest (which has the 21 year min. age requirement).
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog
(Post 309570)
DD,
Your future is in cargo....... Purple or Brown...... :D |
This argument about age is completely insane! I have been a Commercial Pilot since I was 18 and proud of it. Yes, I had to work my ass off to earn as much money as I could while being in HS. Yes I had help from my parents and I am very grateful they were willing to help me out. I was a CFI at 19 and an airline pilot at 20. Am I saying all people at my age are meant to be where I am? NO! Are there some my age that are and maybe should not be? YES, but I hope they are far and few and I am sure any good company can rule them out before it leads to a problem. I am sorry some of you guys feel that the younger pilots are ruining the industry. NOT TRUE! There are many 30+ guys willing to fly a "Shiny Jet" for less than 20k a year! It's not the age that's ruining the industry, it is the industry itself. By this I mean the pilot shortages due to due many of reasons, one being the economy. Pilot shortages mean airlines are forced to lower their minimums to find people to fill the seats. This means guys right out of school don't even have to instruct anymore to build time to be competitive. Do I agree with this, no. I believe that instructing and other types of PIC time building are crucial to developing pilot skill and decision making abilites. Again, nothing to with age! Many companies such as compass and others are using larger aircraft that mainline uses and paying 1/3 the rate to save money. Again, nothing to do with pilot age. Sorry, I don't mean to rant and rave about this. It just frustrates me that people are puting down fellow pilots just because of their age. I personally hope I never have to fly with you. As a matter of fact it has never been an issue with anyone at my company. We have 23 year old captains flying with 50 year old FO's. Just my 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by keiundraj
(Post 309821)
I talked with a 54year old 777 Cpt. the other day and he said he was hired straight out of college with 200hrs and 10multi directly in to the 727. (Braniff) This isn't the first time there's been a pilot shortage and the airlines have done what they had to fill seats. Question is.... Has safety been jeopardized? History says no...... I just don't get it, why are people so mad at low time pilots?
Cited from http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/2001/feb01p18.htm The jet boom (1965–1968) People like Juan Trippe of Pan Am and Howard Hughes of TWA had no intention of inaugurating a pilot shortage when they began buying jets in the late 1950s. But these whisper-quiet magic carpets caught on quickly with a newly affluent flying public, beginning an era of glamorous travel, with Sinatra crooning "Come Fly With Me" in the background. The airlines hired pilots as fast as they ordered jets. United famously hired zero-time college graduates and paid for their training—from scratch! The 727 had a thing called a "Panel". The Panel had a guy sitting in front it (sideways) called the "Flight Engineer". FE's did not actually fly the airplane. Your friend probably spent some time sitting at the panel. Also, airline safety statistics in the late 60's were quite poor compared to today...do some quick research, there are lot fewer airliners and a lot more accidents. You probably don't remember those little kiosks that sat in every airport...and sold per-trip life insurance :eek: |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 310198)
The 727 had a thing called a "Panel". The Panel had a guy sitting in front it (sideways) called the "Flight Engineer". FE's did not actually fly the airplane. Your friend probably spent some time sitting at the panel.
Also, airline safety statistics in the late 60's were quite poor compared to today...do some quick research, there are lot fewer airliners and a lot more accidents. You probably don't remember those little kiosks that sat in every airport...and sold per-trip life insurance :eek: |
Originally Posted by keiundraj
(Post 310245)
Ok if he did fly the "Panel" and didn't actually fly the airplane, have you ever thought one day he moved from the "Panel" to the FO seat with STILL having 200hrs and 10multi:rolleyes:.
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Originally Posted by saabguy493
(Post 310099)
This argument about age is completely insane! I have been a Commercial Pilot since I was 18 and proud of it. Yes, I had to work my ass off to earn as much money as I could while being in HS. Yes I had help from my parents and I am very grateful they were willing to help me out. I was a CFI at 19 and an airline pilot at 20. Am I saying all people at my age are meant to be where I am? NO! Are there some my age that are and maybe should not be? YES, but I hope they are far and few and I am sure any good company can rule them out before it leads to a problem. I am sorry some of you guys feel that the younger pilots are ruining the industry. NOT TRUE! There are many 30+ guys willing to fly a "Shiny Jet" for less than 20k a year! It's not the age that's ruining the industry, it is the industry itself. By this I mean the pilot shortages due to due many of reasons, one being the economy. Pilot shortages mean airlines are forced to lower their minimums to find people to fill the seats. This means guys right out of school don't even have to instruct anymore to build time to be competitive. Do I agree with this, no. I believe that instructing and other types of PIC time building are crucial to developing pilot skill and decision making abilites. Again, nothing to with age! Many companies such as compass and others are using larger aircraft that mainline uses and paying 1/3 the rate to save money. Again, nothing to do with pilot age. Sorry, I don't mean to rant and rave about this. It just frustrates me that people are puting down fellow pilots just because of their age. I personally hope I never have to fly with you. As a matter of fact it has never been an issue with anyone at my company. We have 23 year old captains flying with 50 year old FO's. Just my 2 cents.
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why 21
i may be 21, but i have been flying since i was 12
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"have you ever thought one day he moved from the "Panel" to the FO seat with STILL having 200hrs and 10multi"
Having spent four years at the panel, I can say YES, it would make a big difference. Panel time at a 121 airline was a great way to build experience without being in a window seat. |
That kid's part of the reason the industry is the way it is today.
"I care about my career, and I'll make whatever sacrifices I need in order to reach my goals. Who cares how it affects others right now, or how it will affect me in the 15 years from now?" Idiot. I'd say he was shooting himself in the leg, but unfortunately he's also screwing the rest of us at the same time. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 310198)
Also, airline safety statistics in the late 60's were quite poor compared to today...do some quick research, there are lot fewer airliners and a lot more accidents. You probably don't remember those little kiosks that sat in every airport...and sold per-trip life insurance :eek:
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hey thanks all who responded.
I am almost done with the 4 year degree, doing riddle extended and I am only about 12 classes away. So, people have been hired at SkyWest without being 21? Same with Mesa? So if it was you then, and you met the requirements, would you apply? In my opinion I would say no because if you submit your resume and they do not notice that you are not 21, and you get to the interview and they find out you are not 21 couldn't that hurt you in the future? |
Colgan, where I just resigned has many pilots under 21. I just turned 20 when I got hired. I actually was put into and upgrade class when I was 21 but told them I was not old enough for the ATP. Colgan is very respectful and does not see age as the problem. As a matter of fact, I am sure any of these 20 some year old saab/beech pilots are more of a pilot than any of these button pusher guys!!!
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so why did you leave...and the other SAAB guy could prolly fill us in on his opinion of them, i have seen his monkey / ape thing around talking bad about the place, seems like a good argument.
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