Pinnacle Negotiations
 

I heard the recent negotiations at Pinnacle did not go well. Basically management is stalling again...


Should I put my stuff in there?

Why doesn't the pilot group man up, and do what ASA did before they got their contract?

Although I'm not at Pinnacle I have to say that I have been impressed with their resolve to get a better contract installed. While I think the work rules / pay need improvement, I think they are on their way to a better days....The pilot group seems to be together on this one too...which in this day and time is a breath of fresh air.

There's one reason the recent negotiations didn't "go well" Spooled......
It's because we're standing up for what we think is right!!! To me, that is manning up.
Maybe you should go to ASA then if you think things are all rosey over there...

Man up? Ever considered a position in management?

Holy crap. Strong words, brah! Do you have any idea what the Pinnacle group has been doing?

No I don't. What has the pilot group been doing? I know the union has been doing everything they can. But what have the pilots been doing? Blocking out late?

The pilots ARE the union!

You come in with a pretty strong opinion for somebody who doesn't even work in the business.

You failed to answer my question. What are the pilots doing?

You know as well as I do, that the pilots are not the union. 90% of the pilots sit back and watch. They don't volunteer their time.
We do know 13% of the pilot group could care less.

Honestly, I think the ASA pilots accepted a subpar contract compared to what they could have gotten. Even with their raises, they are still well below Horizon, Republic, Expressjet, Eagle. And now with Pinnacle, Mesa, Horizon, Republic, and a few others starting negotiations, they will be towards the bottom of the totem poll very shortly. I think ASA caved on their TA.
I think (and hope) that Pinnacle will hold out for much better than ASA. How about shooting above Expressjet, or Republic, or maybe even Horizon. A strike would help your chances of achieving these rates.

Be that as it may, they aren't likely to be released.

They were close to being released. However when management pulled their lawsuit stunt the NMB wouldn't release the pilots to self-help because of the pending legal matter.

Spooled, you have a lot to learn about the Railway Labor Act and negotiations in general before you start running your mouth.

Keep it up PNCL!

Don't settle for a slave contract like XJT!

How was Pinnacle ever close to being released?

And what do I need to learn about the RLA and negotiations? Please explain. I'm willing to learn.

I talked nothing about illegal work actions. I asked what the pilot group was doing. IE - Writing everything up, not blocking out until getting cargo slip, run the APU, taxi slowly, not calling ops for numbers, if you need to burn off fuel do it at idle. Look at what Northwest and ASA accomplished.

Dudes: DO NOT fall for this flamebait.

All of those examples would be illegal work actions if the union encouraged them.

What has northwest accomplished? All I see is a contractual payraise this year. They still don't have anything close to what they had prior to concessions.

ASA? Their contract is just on par with the better ones out there. By the time everybody goes through negotiations (which nearly every contract is amendable) it will likely be near the bottom. One of the pitfalls of going first.

The union doesn't have to encourage them. They should encourage flying safely.

How are those illegal work actions? Since when is following the FOM/CFM illegal work actions?

"Writing everything up" - Flying around with inop equipment is a violation waiting to happen.

"not blocking out until getting cargo slip." FOM specifically states you need cargo slip before closing the door.

"run the APU" - Safety issue, generator redundancy, bleed misconfig.

"taxi slowly" - Safety issue, look at all the runoffs.
"not calling ops for numbers" - Sit in the penalty box until ground crew/load control does their job.
"if you need to burn off fuel do it at idle" - FOM states taxi with no more than 35% N1, to avoid FOD ingestion.

NWA- Did you notice how slow they taxied over the summer? I don't know the exact details. But they were getting paid only the time they flew (hence slow taxi speed). Now they are getting 'block' values, 50% premium pay over 80 hours, and other things.

ASA- They got management to negotiate. And they got a TA. I didn't say it was a good TA. But its a hell of a lot of progress, from the 5 year stand still.

No you freaking DB...90% of the pilots at 9E VOTED TO AUTHORIZE A STRIKE...that's not "sitting back and wtaching" if you ask me.

Who the heck are you? Who do you work for?

With the hostile work environment, abuse and negativity that is unfortunately the reality at PNCL, I think it is very important to not lose sight of our number one guiding principle: "Never Compromise Safety". With that in mind, permit me to share a few observations about possible hazards to safety.

Many of us at PNCL are keenly aware that it is winter and very slippery out there. In fact, there have been several aircraft from different air carriers that have already had taxi incidents/accidents this winter due to slippery surfaces. More and more of us at PNCL are realizing the need to slow down and taxi at a safe winter speed. You can not always see ice and even if you do, by the time you see ice it may be too late.

According to the FAA, runway incursions and other pilot deviations involving surface operations are on the rise at many US airports. One of the main reasons for having two pilots is safety and redundancy. That being said, it does not help having two sets of eyes in the cockpit if one person is heads down. I think that it is only prudent that the aircraft not be taxied unless both pilots are able to devote their attention to the task at hand, a safe taxi. If there are issues to be resolved, charts to be examined, accars messages to be sent, FMS data to be inputted, manuals to be referenced, and/or other potential distractions, the aircraft should be brought to a stop. If I see that my FO is heads down and rushed, I coordinate with ground a safe location to stop until both of us can pay attention to the taxi. Since stopping on a taxiway is not always convenient, I try to either avoid blocking out until everything is in order per my FOM or I inform ground when calling for taxi that we will need to sit somewhere.

Another important note is on deicing. If there is any doubt at all, it's only prudent and responsible to err on the side of caution. Even at a few degrees above freezing on the ramp, many aircraft on a short turn may be contaminated with hard to see clear ice that they picked up on approach. In my opinion if there is any doubt at all, the only safe course of action is to go spray. Since a tactile inspection of the empenage and many other parts of the aircraft is not practical, it may be necessary to de-ice/anti-ice when encountering cold temperatures and the possibility that the aircraft may have recently encountered moisture.

When I upgraded, I distinctly remember one of my instructors emphasizing the need to exercise Captain's authority in the interest of safety regardless of the popularity of my decision with the company. I have taken that advise to heart and it has served me well. In closing, I think it's important to note that we have a professional and united pilot group. I am confident that we will remain united, professional and most importantly safe despite the hard times we face.

Actually 87% of the 9E pilots voted. Of those 87%, 99% voted in favor of a strike. Who are the 13%??

Its not that hard to dial a phone number and vote. All I'm saying is 90% of pilots don't volunteer their time to the union.

Ok well here's a thought.....go somewhere else!! Your going to make no friends here bad mouthing a pilot group. And I'm curious where have you obtained all your ultra industry knowledge?

He's not badmouthing the 9E pilot group, and he's really spot-on in his analysis.

Its the delivery that is somewhat lacking.

When 9E pilots really get ****ed off and start a safety campaign on their own initiative en masse, you'll likely see movement because of the pressure it would place on management. Until the pilot group unifies in that manner (and that's nothing the MEC can suggest) as NWA and ASA did, don't expect much to change.

You wanna know what would make every regional come to a crawl in any given day? PUT THE CELL PHONES DOWN.

So VERY TRUE!!!!! Nothing like sorting it out over ACARS. :)

I'm not bad mouthing any pilot group. I think the 9E pilot group is great bunch of men and women. They will not settle for anything less than industry a leading contract.

My ultra industry knowledge(;)), comes from doing lots of reading and research. Not believing one single source, but gathering information from many sources, and making my own conclusion.

dude..... my conclusion is that you need another drink.

If we want a contract we as pilots (not the Union) need to give this company the ontime performance and completion factor they deserve. And believe me it is not hard to do. The amount of incompetence in this operation (ramp,Dispatch,MEL documentation,Load numbers,etc)gives a pilot plenty of opportunities to sit on his/her hands for a couple of minutes until the flight is delayed. I have less than a 50% ontime performance over the past 4 months. I do not do anything illegal, against company policy or FAR's to get that. If all pilots did that our management would cave in a month. Remember that the only way our stock price goes up is if we get more airplanes. There is more Delta flying down the pipe that management wants, so they can not afford any drop off in performance until an Air Seervice Agreement for more airplanes is signed.

So if we want a contract all Pinnacle pilots are going to need to deceide they have had enough and let the flights be delayed, stop using your cell phone to fix there screw ups, don't ACARs or talk to Ops unless you are parked in the Deice pad, and fly at LRC when possible( to save fuel).

Any other suggestions?

"SHOULD I PUT MY STUFF IN THERE??"" you obviously already work here since you know so much about our procedures. your just on here trying to get something going but you are going about it the wrong way. after reading all these posts, plus the ones where you talk about msp vacancies, i have concluded that you do work here. so acting like you don't and then knowing all of our procedures. and not only do you know procedures you are quoting stuff from our fom.. you aren't to bright are you?

I think you flew with me last week. :D

So there are a few of us on this board that have had enough of the Pinnacle B.S. why do so many of our colleague's continue to work hard for this company?? And what can we do about it

Taxi Slow,do not use cell phone, do not call to get numbers corrected until you are in the penalty box (if then), do not call ops to get marshalled in, do not push back with a broken headset unless complying with FOM, do not have MEL added to release while you are taxing out,fly LRC whenever possible, do not fix nuisance messages by pulling circuit breakers on your own, do not accept short cuts on your route of flight, do not take the time to explain to the dispatcher why we need an alternate because they do not know how to read a TAF(that one happened last week)
Please note these suggestions do not require any FAR's or company policies broken.

Any other suggestions for our fellow Pinnacle pilots???

Allow the incompetence to take it's toll. There is no requirement in the FOM to have/use a cell phone. There is no requirement to make repetitive calls to ops/dispatch to try to do somebody else's job. Do your job and do it well per the contract. Make sure you do it SAFELY. Talk to everybody you fly with/see at ops/socialize with about your concerns about safety. Remember our guiding principle #1: "Never Compromise Safety".

You can't fix stupid. This is what all the 9E guys face every day. I go to work, do my job legally and to the best of my ability, and leave. In time mgmt will come to the conclusion that they are not going to be profitable until they treat the pilots right. I am rarely on time and when a CA tries to help the company I speak up. No cargo slip, need a new release- not dropping th damn brake. Say what you want but I stay legal per the company manuals and do not allow others to make up rules and regulations as they go. We are not allowed to block out without the correct and legal release and we are not allowed to open the galley service door to get a cargo slip just to get the main door closed and a "on time" departure on the record. We use ACARS as the source of communication- the company does not supply us with a cellphone and I am not going to use mine to take care of their issues.

I am an FO at PNCL- name is not hard to figure out. Anyone who has flown with me will tell you I will speak up if we are doing something incorrectly per the books. I am RARELY on time, if everyone else performs the job as directed BY THE COMPANY we will find ourselves with a contract soon.


I'm off to the saucer.

A question I was wondering about earlier... say Pinnacle Pilots do strike. Would a new hire, still under the one year probation period (I imagine they have one), be able to strike? Or, would management find some staffing by maxing out duty times of guys on reserve and on probation?

No because you would not fly struck work right...;)

If you fly struck work probationary or not you are a scab and will be a scab for the rest of your life. This subject has been covered extensively. Do a search for Pinnacle, PNCL, 9E or look at some of my previous posts to find some of the threads.

Thanks for clearing that up. It seems like a difficult spot for one to be in. I didn't know if someone under probation had protection from being fired during a strike. Still learing the ropes, it's a far different world from Part135, and no, I would not fly struck work! Good luck to all of you guys over there!

your right, a probie has NO protection from being fired for striking. The company still cannot legally fire you as the strike is legal (at least from what I understant), however its not hard for the company to find something small to justify termination. But there is security in the matter since the rest of the pilot group WILL NOT return to work until every last pilot is re-hired. I am still on probation at 9E and have no worries about my job security if we strike. Support your fellow pilot group and they will do the same in return. Were a pretty tight group over here.

Very good point Hingey. I suggest you share that with EVERYONE you fly with.

As for the rest of the "by the book", and "give 100%, but not anymore", and "be safe" (as recommended by Wolf, Hingey, and others), I think you guys have the right idea. Good luck with your negotiations. Nothing like a little bit of pressure to get management moving on contract talks.

Agreed. But the ASA "Fly SAFE" campaign worked because it was coordinated effort by almost the entire pilot group, not just a few pilots. Why isn't 9E ALPA orchestrating this as a campaign? I don't mean this as a hostile question towards ALPA, 9E MEC or anyone else. I'm just wondering why ALPA isn't doing more to encourage by-the-book safe flying?

Because any coordination by the union makes it an illegal work action with very large punitive damages likely to be awarded to the company...the classic example is the American sickout back in 98 (I think).

No matter how much you follow the FOM to the letter it is not going to help get a contract quicker. Management will drag their feet as long as possible.

The only way I see 9E getting a contract real soon is if they accept the crap that the company has been offering.

Since 2005 I have been hearing the contract is on the way real soon so we can get bigger airplanes. almost 3years later you have bigger planes and nothing.

The people of Noncarring Blvd are douche bags. Offering 24.39 for a second year pay for a CR9 is just horrible. I hope the pay rates that the arbitrator are MUCH better than that. I would like to see it in the $38.00 range