I think PNCL MEC sent the Colgan Pilot's a letter saying that the picket was NOT directed towards the pilots but towards PNCL Corp.

C'mon Guys!
 

9E has 1400+ pilots and Colgan around 400+ (according to APC), that’s only about 30% the size of 9E. Seeing that Colgan is strictly a mid to low tier Prop Shop their pilot group, as a hole, is extremely Jr (when compared to 9E). IMO, the only way a Colgan pilot can best a 9E pilot is by a %age based merger, otherwise 9E pilots will always come out on top.

Personally, seeing how Jr Colgan pilots are to 9E pilots, I think the fair merger would be DOH with 3-4 year fences. With a DOH merger the Colgan pilot group would still end up on the low side of the seniority list and the fences would prevent the more senior 9E FO’s from taking Colgan upgrades and the more senior Colgan CA’s from taking 9E’s FO’s upgrades. After 3-4 years it will all be a moot point seeing that the 9E FO that will lose out to the Colgan CA moving over isn’t even hired yet. As a matter of fact the 9E FO who will be affected by the merger will have to have a DOH of 2010, and when it’s time for him to upgrade then he’ll just take the B1900 or the SAAB upgrade.

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t ALPA support DOH mergers? I think this would be a bigger problem if 9E had purchased AE or Horizon. Then 9E pilots would be screwed with a merger but Colgan? C’mon guys! They're so Jr that their not a threat as long as you have 3-4 year fences!

As for the "they're not union so screw them" mindset, that's real mature of you all!

Exactly. I would say the median pilot senority is about 3 years with Colgan. 5/6 years at Colgan would get you in the top 10% with the company.

There is so much speculation on what may happen so there is no use in playing "what if."

As far as Toilet Duck, Colgan pilots do not care about the Q400 protest, we know it was not against us and we have no bad feelings towards your pilot group. What we should concentrate on is not trying to get over on eachother but becoming a strong union pilot group for the future. PNCL pilots are better off with another 400+ pilots when it comes to union negotiating.

We are all on the same team.

I'm not PNCL I'm RAH. Secondly how are 400+ pilots better for union negotiations when they aren't union?

Because most of their pilots are pro-ALPA.

for the record- my previous reply did come off a bit selfish but i typed what was on my mind and won't hide my thoughts. darn alcohol filter...


now- however a list is merged/joined/stapled- does the colgan group as a whole decide if they will JOIN alpa or is it individual just as it would be if you were to just start off at pncl? i do not know of any 9e pilots who are not alpa but have heard there are just a couple old timers who never joined...

I do support possible fences and/or seat locks to keep it somewhat "fair". this would allow a saab guy to eventually bid the jet or a houston living 9e guy to fly the Q- goes both ways but i could see the jet being "high demand".

Even without a staple, I expect that a good enough fence would make sure that no Pinnacle guys are going to get stepped over, at least not the guys hired before the acquisition. I have no hard feelings towards the Colgan guys but let us remember that it was the fruits of labor of the Pinnacle Inc. pilots that Pinnacle Corp. management stole and gave to another airline. That's a fact and can not be overlooked. Colgan had an opportunity to vote in ALPA (which may have made the situation easier) but rejected it. Now they may have to pay the price. I wish the Colgan guys the best but not at the expense of a single Pinnacle pilot.

Some of you guys need to do some research. Post # 31 is the only one that is right. The Colgan pilots seniority is fully protected by federal law and they are entitled to mediation and arbitration.

No it is not. It is a nonunionzed list. Allegheny-Mohawk only applies to two unionized lists.

Come tomorrow you may be VERY surprised my friend.

Doesn't do anything for the union though. They can't vote for or against anything that's going on in negotiations.

If they merge the lists, Colgan will become ALPA. This will create 400+ more union voices which will help carry more power for the PNCL cause. PNCL Corp will now have their entire pilot group under one union with the power of a unified single group rather than one union and one not, or both having two seperate ALPA shops.

No staple, here is the legislation:


(c) AIRPORT AND AIRWAY TRUST FUND EXPENDITURE
AUTHORITY.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Paragraph (1) of section 9502(d) of such
Code is amended—
(A) by striking ‘‘October 1, 2007’’ and inserting ‘‘March
1, 2008’’, and
(B) by inserting ‘‘or the Department of Transportation
Appropriations Act, 2008’’ in subparagraph (A) before the
semicolon at the end.
(2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.—Paragraph (2) of section
9502(f) of such Code is amended by striking ‘‘October 1, 2007’’
and inserting ‘‘March 1, 2008’’.
(d) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by this section
shall take effect on October 1, 2007.
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION. (a) LABOR INTEGRATION.—With
respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered
air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes
that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.),
sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by
the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as
published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered
employees of the covered air carriers; except that—
(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the
combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers,
that collective bargaining agent’s internal policies regarding
integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede
the requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement
that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving
covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected
by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered
by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the
protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-
Mohawk provisions.
(b) DEFINITIONS.—In this section, the following definitions
apply:
(1) AIR CARRIER.—The term ‘‘air carrier’’ means an air
carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of
title 49, United States Code.
(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER.—The term ‘‘covered air carrier’’
means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE.—The term ‘‘covered employee’’
means an employee who—
(A) is not a temporary employee; and
(B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject
to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).






In a nutshell, absent any contractual protections, airline employees will have A-M as a default protection of their seniority.

ALPA-ALPA merger, ALPA policy.

ALPA-non ALPA, A-M policy

A-M, has as its goal a fair and reasonable integration. Like ALPA policy it doesn't favor any particular integration methodolgy and absent a negotiated agreement A-M utilizes binding arbitration to settle disputes.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...764enr.txt.pdf

Nevermind then! Must have had bad info.

Seg, maybe not. I'm a layman reading this mumbo-jombo! That's the way it reads, but who knows. PCL has pretty iron clad scope, but it's still up for arbitration. Craphouse lawyers can read anything into anything

I have to admit I'm not sure on this point. I don't know if it's possible to force a union on someone. Is it?

Is a non union carrier subject to the RLA?

Just remember how seniority works Girls. Colgans pilots merge then take part in the fast track upgrade program to the left seat they will upgrade prior to Pinnacle Pilots on the list pre-merge.

Are we merged yet? Im getting tired of waiting and debating the issue. Send me my PNCL uniform and my alpa card, ill GLADLY mail in my alpa dues check and we can push forward as a group.

yes, we are still covered under the protected class, category, all that jazz.

I thought the way the Q came to Colgan was that Continental approached Colgan, and initially Colgan turned it down because they lacked the capital to aquire the aircraft. The offer on the table from Continental was what sparked Pinnacle's interest in Colgan in the first place. If that's true, it's not clear that Pinnacle would've had the opportunity in the first place, since Continental may have approached another airline with the opportunity instead. Hence the aquisition.

I must say, that makes perfect sense to me.

That's why 3-4 year fences are always put into place.

So 3-4 year fence basically equals a seat/certificate lock, right?

I really really really hope to God all the Colgan pilots are locked onto their current equipment/certificate for at least 2 years.

I think the best example of a "down the road" Colgan/9E operation would be RAH, where you're hired into a certificate, but once you're assigned an a/c you're locked on that equipment for 2 years.

But initially, you're going to have some steamed FOs over here at 9E if some Colgan captains come in and steal our upgrades....the hope of which is the only thing we have going for us, with our FO wages.

Honestly, I would fully support it if ALPA used this ruling as a bargaining chip with mgmt...i.e. offer to leave things how they are if mgmt signs a good contract. Use the ruling as leverage, but don't let the lists ever get merged.

Kind of, it works both ways. A Colgan pilot can still move between Colgan’s B1900’s, Saab’s and Q’s as well as all of Colgan’s current bases. What it will prevent is a Colgan pilot taking an RJ slot at a 9E base for 3-4 years and the same for a 9E pilot. The 9E pilot can move between the CR2 & CR9 in MSP, MEM, DTW and ATL but they can not accept and FO or CA’s position on any of Colgan’s current equipment in any of Colgan’s bases.

But once the fences are over it's all for themselves. Whatever you can hold you can have.

As far as RAH's contract restrictions, I've heard nothing but heartache from some of RAH's pilots over it. Getting stuck in a domicile/AC when you could have better QOL on the another AC/certificate, but because you have a blended BS pay rate you're stuck until upgrade. Think about this, you’re working the CHQ cert on the E in DEN when you’re wife gets a job in ATL. Now you’re forced to commute even though your company has an ATL domicile (that your # can hold) on the a/c you currently fly. But you’re stuck on the CHQ cert because of your contract and seeing that your already flying the highest paying a/c in the fleet, you can never switch certs and therefore screwed.

I like that here at SKW we have LOTS of domiciles to choose between and if you want you can move back and forth between a/c & domicile as you wish. There is a 1 year seat lock on a/c but no base lock unless you turn down an award then you're locked for 6 months. As a matter of fact we just had an RJ CA accept an EMB CA slot. Here at SKW all a/c are viewed equally.

I sure opened a can of worms -- I agree with the logic that the pilots must be merged fairly -- if the ruling states that they cannot be operated seperately -- then they must be joined because of a purchase that happened in the past, ALPA is no longer a question for Colgan guys, its a fact, they were bought by an ALPA company; as a union pilot group fair integration is a must.

Thanks for all the information from eveyone and hopefully we will hear some news soon!!

I just hope that a) This takes at least 3-6 months to happen (merging of any lists, that is), and b) There are fences in place lasting at least 1 or 2 years so I can upgrade before Colgan captains come flooding in for RJ Capt slots and knock out all those DTW capt vacancies...

Anyone have a guestimate on how long after the ruling is issued before they actually get the lists put together??? I would hope it will take at least another 3-5 months or so before the lawyers/MEC Chair/etc sets up the transition.

Any chance they would send the Q400s onto the 9E certificate? I hope that doesn't happen...it would be a junior a/c and I don't have hardly any seniority.

I don't know dude - I'd take that Q over the CRJ-200 any day of the week...

As long as the pay was the same for all 76 seat A/C I would completely agree with ya on that one. The Q is a nice plane.

I am hoping that this decision will only expedite the much needed contract with the 9E guys and let Colgan enjoy what they already have going for them. That would seem to ruffle the least amount of feathers.

It is interesting to note that a lot of Colgan guys/girls did not even take the time to vote on when giving the opportunity to unionize. . . . .

i'm pretty happy on the saab, although i'd love to make more money on the crj is this whole thing goes through and that is possible

Yeah, NicholasBlonde, we are all coming for your jets...watch out here we come.:rolleyes:

It is funny how scared you are about there being some mass exodus to the CRJ from Colgan. Trust me, you want our butts in your planes as much as we want your butts in ours.

The Juice always speaks the Truth!

That is actually pretty funny - given his Avatar LoL :D

I tend to agree with some of your logic. If I wanted to fly a jet I would have applied to a company that flies jets. I have no desire to bid any of PNCLs aircraft. Of course everyone probably wants fences up because it is natural to not want anyone senior to you taking over your turf. It is what it is though and we will see what happens.

I'll let someone else jump in but I think once your two year seat lock as captain is up you are free to go to another aircraft. I must admit I only fly with 145 guys that were going to the 170 though.

Yes but that's you. There are a lot of guys that went Colgan because they only had 300hrs and wanted to get their foot in a 121 carrier to one day fly those jets. SJSers

Here it is weeks end -- no decision yet??

Were you drunk when you posted this, or just feeling the effects of all those paint chips you ate as a child?
Chautauqua does not have domiciles in either DEN or ATL. If we did have bases at those airports, you could switch back and forth every other month if you wanted (assuming you didn't get locked out by senior people filling your vacancy).
Everybody flying on the Chautauqua certificate is flying the LOWEST-paying aircraft on property at RAH. We fly the tiny planes, so we get the tiny paychecks.

"There are a lot of guys that went Colgan because they only had 300hrs and wanted to get their foot in a 121 carrier to one day fly those jets. SJSers"

Isn't it PCL that has the deal with JetU? That's just as bad from a SJS standpoint.

And what are the regionals for if it is not to use as a stepping stone to the majors? Who took a job with the regionals saying I'm never leaving here. Lets not have another hours debate.