PNCL Scope Ruling
 

Any Word --

a FO from PNCL jumpseated today said there was a ruling in favor of the pilot group and resultantly the companies must merge?? I took it with a grain of salt, seems like we would hear about such news?

Yeah Colgan has to give all Q400's to Pinnacle, INC to be flown by Pinnacle pilots on the pinnacle seniority list. All new hires at Colgan in the Q will not be transfered to Pinnacle.

just kidding nothing official yet altho the MEC email sounded optimistic...

I can guarantee that as soon as our MEC gets the ruling it will be emailed to the pilots. There are quite a few 9E guys here so word will travel fast. Nobody at pncl wishes harm on colgan- i say give them the planes and diversify the company. Problem is the 9E pilots earned the money and don't even get the respect of a fair contract. While nobody should speculate this is a public forum..... All i want out of this as a 9E pilot is for this ruling to spark a status quo infringement and get us a cooling off period. STFD.

give US (as in pinnacle and colan) planes and diversify our company together under one seniority list. No more whipsaw threats. This will be good for both companies hopefully

I totally agree. Merging the lists gets us (colgan) ALPA, and more negotiating power to everyone. I don't even care how the lists are merged; flying with no union security or legal contract is far more dangerous.

How would this merger of the lists work? Will 9E pilots then be able to bid for Colgan flying and vice versa?

the ruling will be in our favor as i said a couple of weeks ago. i thought they were going to say something more in our last confrence call but i heard from some good sources, a couple weeks ago, that "once phil and his gang see the ruling they will go ape ****" the ruling is coming and is an obvious violation of our scope clause. like higney said i wish for no ill will between us and our colgan pilots.

as far as seniority list merger goes i have heard of several different ways that it could go.

1. a 2 for 1 merging of the seniority list. for example a guy that had been at colgan for 2 years would be placed in line with the guys that have been at pinnacle for 1 year.. and so on, and so on

2. relative seniority merging. for example a guy that is in the middle of the pack at colgan, will be put in the middle of the pack at pinnacle. a guy in the top 10% at colgan, will be placed in the top 10% at pinnacle.

not sure if i like either way but i am sure it will be as fair as they can get since none of the pilots started this mess, we just have to clean it up.

What would this mean for a new hire at 9E? Bad?

So tell me Colgan Pilots, do you regret not voting ALPA in now?

Just to throw in my $.02:

It seems that the "relative seniority" method of merging lists is the only fair way to go. All of this "my airline is better than yours" nonsense is killing pilot unity and handing management victories hand over fist while they laugh their ways to the bank. The game of "Who's top?" vs. "Who's bottom?" has to end. Both companies always bring something to the table, and regardless of relative worth, the pilot group of any airline should not ever be punished. That is a surefire way to kill pilot unity and morale for years down the road.

Now, I'm sure their are ways to slightly modify the relative method to slightly adjust for upcoming retirements or slews of new hires at one company vs. no new hires at the other. However, these should only be slight adjustments. Screwing your partner in a merger is NEVER a good idea.

Finally, it would do ALPA a world of good to be exceptionally fair to Colgan despite their not choosing union representation. It's time for a good PR drive backed by actions at ALPA. Besides, it was a very close vote. There are a lot of pro-ALPA folks at Colgan, after all.

Wouldn't PNCL management try to seat-lock 9E pilots into their respective a/c, and also seat-lock Colgan pilots into whatever a/c they're currently on? I would think if the seniority lists were merged that mgmt would setup something like Republic/Chataq/Shuttle, where you've got one seniority list, but you're hired onto a certificate and seat-locked for 2 years due to costs of retraining lateral a/c transfers.

Evidence=ATL flying at 9E with the 2 yr seat lock for pilots transferring/assigned to that base.

Very simple take Colgan Pilots and STAPLE them to the BOTTOM on the Pinnacle list.

ALPA will screw everybody with some merge list that sends the existing Pinnacle Pilots backwards. That will be your dues at work!

Remember if this happens and the lists are merged there will be Pinnacle Pilots laid off before Colgan Pilots when the Delta Consolidation takes place.

It is only fair that Colgan guys get stapled. I don't want to sound rude but it's true. There's no reason a group who voted down a union should receive any bonus because the the other pilot group was unified, paid dues, and used the process.

He's right.

You would probably have to look elsewhere to find some. Of the Colgan pilots I know of on this site all of them either voted alpa or were hired just after the vote. The majority of pilots I have met at colgan that would actually care enough to read an online forum to keep up with the pulse of the industry also care enough to desire some type of union and the protection and collective bargaining that it would provide.

Hey on a side note I thought you were going on the 757?

So did I! (useless words to make this post more than 10 characters....done)

So what you're saying is that only unionized pilots deserve anything and non-unionized pilots are scum? Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black?

Not even an option, there will be no staple. And in my opinion, I am not worried about it. Both PNCL and Colgan can not fill the seats they have with qualified at pilots. I do not think a 200 FO who is about to meet upgrade requirements is going to say, "Hey I think I will take the pay cut and upgrade in the Saab." And for those of us in the Saab the senority wont hurt us on upgrade because time in type still counts. The Q's will still fly out of the East Coasts and will soon be in IAH. If a PNCL guy want to fly the Q at that pay, have at it. Just remember if we merge the lists and we become ALPA as well, we may want to fly some of those jets.

I hope to heck there is a seat-lock on incoming Colgan pilots post-list-merging so that you don't end up with a situation where a 9E FO loses upgrade opportunities b/c a Colgan FO with more "seniority" bids a CRJ capt vacancy.

I.e. even if it's 2 for 1, a Colgan 1900 FO with 3 yos (=1.5 years 9E seniority) upgrades on a CRJ before a 9E CRJ FO with 1.4 years seniority. That would get me a little bit angry.

There are no Colgan FOs that I know of with over two years in seniority. All that were hired with anywhere near 1000TT have been upgrading into the saab in 12-14 months give or take a few. I will not even begin to speculate or say what should happen with seatlocks because it is a waste of energy since my oppinion does not matter in the long run. As for a BE FO taking a CRJ captain slot if it were even possible I would say it would go both ways. There may be a pinnacle FO living in Presque isle and commuting to MEM and hating life just as there may be a beech FO living in Memphis and commuting to Bar Harbor. If it were to happen it may work out well for some and not so well for others. Mergers never go smooth for everyone. If anyone from PNCL wants EWR it is theirs for the taking.

There are no 3 year Beech FOs. I don't think there are even any 1.5 year beech FOs here

I don't want EWR...I don't want the Q400...I just want my CRJ FO job with a decent contract. I'll deal with whatever I have to deal with b/c that's what I signed up for in this career, but I'll be a little steamed if the union I pay for makes it possible for a guy who voted against the union at Colgan to take an upgrade/base/line from me...hope I don't sound like a DB

no jet i dont think that is what he is saying. look at it this way. it was the pinnacle pilots scope clause that was violated. if the company wanted to grow they should have done it with the pinnacle pilots they had a contract with. instead their attempt to whipsaw us and move our jobs to another airline has been defeated (supposedly right). put yourself in our shoes. what if skywest bought mesa (and no guys i am not comparing colgan to mesa) and then started giving mesa more flying because they are cheaper and have poorer work rules than skywest pilots do. so it would start with a few mesa jets in slc, and then before you know it they are doing all the new flying and taking over some. of course that would take several years but there would be no doubt it would happen. lucky for us we were able to stop this before it got out of hand and hopefully we can come to a quick resolution to this and move on to finish our negotiations.

hahahaha... oh juice, you dont want to fly our nice shiny jets. hey i just hope no one has been at colgan for more than 5 years and wants to be a captain in mem, its senior enough damn it!!! :)

No offense, you just sound selfish, thinking that a union entitles you to more. I voted yes for ALPA here at SKW but I have no illusions that one pilot deserves more than another, unless that pilot crossed a picked line or accepted a job at an alter-ego carrier (BlowJet), and I believe Colgan pilots did neither! So, they’re entitled to the same rights that you are.

BTW, there will be fences put in place to prevent this from happening for many years to come.

I think this may hurt the PNCL guys in the long run. It would be easier to just give you guys a new contract and keep Colgan flying the props and PNCL flying the jet.

The reason I say it may hurt PNCL in the long run is because I think there will be more Colgan guys wanting to fly jets that the other way around. I for one would give a lot of thought in doing a transition from left seat Saab to left seat CRJ after a while, that way we can get that sought after Jet PIC everyone wants.

As far as how we will merge senority, a staple wont happen so nothing much will change. Here is an example. If a Saab FO has 1.5 years senority and 2000 TT w/ 1100 and with the merge his senority drops to .75 years he will still upgrade in the same time, as in now.

As I have said in previous posts, you guys might be careful what you wish for. We have old prop planes with lower overall pay for the most part, PNCL has newer jets with overall better pay. Lets merge the lists some we BOTH become ALPA, both groups paying dues. Lets do this and see who moves over to what side quicker. I have always wanted to fly the jet ;)

I'm sure plenty of fences will be put up to stop movement etc. 99% of the anti-alpa types at colgan are either 1. gone or 2. so senior in their base that's they'd never move. Staple job is illegal, but it's ultimately up to the PCL MEC or arbitration to decide how it goes. I'm sure there will be ppl from both sides that want to move around, but the majority will stay where they are. The biggest perk to pcl pilots out of this that I see is that you add 400 more voices to your senority list and eliminate the whipsaw threat.

If there is a merger, it will be in accordance with allegheny-mohawk. Nobody get stapled - it's federal law as of December 2007. The integration will be decided by an arbitraitor.

oooohh, do we get the black suits with the gold bars too?? I'm tired of my faded old blue pants.

Thats funny! I think I still have the STFD hat and an RTB as well.

I didn't say non-unionized pilots are scum. The Colgan guys had the opportunity to vote a union and pay their dues. They didn't so they don't deserve the protection or benefits of a union. It's that simple. The union is paid for by the PNCL pilots. The union won this fight therefor not a single PNCL pilot should lose any seniority to a Colgan guy.

My statements have nothing to do with name calling or anything else. It's business. PNCL guys foot the bill for it therefore they deserve the rewards.

Nowhere does it state that stapling a pilot group is illegal. It just says things must be kept fair. So if the judge says "Hey you guys didn't pay, didn't fight, and voted against what won this battle. It would be unfair to put you above guys that did pay, did fight, and stayed active with their union who did win. To the bottom you go!!! Enjoy the already better lifestyle you'll receive as gift enough for doing nothing more than going against the stream on this".

True, I am somewhat ashamed that we didn't vote in ALPA when we had the chance but, the problem with your statement illustrates the problem with the regional airline industry. You're saying it's all about ME ME ME, and all the hard work pinnacle pilots have done so far to better the INDUSTRY doesn't seem fair because they may have to take a little for the team. It sucks for all pinnacle pilots that may be adversely affected. However, they are accomplishing what everyone on here complains about: too many low tier regionals bringing pay down for everyone. Well count us (Colgan) taken care of. If the pinnacle pilots win there is one less bottom rung airline to threaten your next contract. Colgan sucks without any protection from a union so however they decide to merge us is fine by me (including a staple).


Next time you see a pinnacle pilot, give him or her a big thank you.

not quite... i am a 1.5yr fo with the mins to upgrade (time wise) and will not hold mem ca for a few months. By late summer i should have the seniority and will have the age. Remember with no crj time at pncl you need 3500tt. good luck holding mem. not trying to be mean- just presenting facts. I will be very upset if i don't upgrade late summer because of a colgan fo who comes in and takes the vacancy. Call me selfish but i am here for the tjpic. if i just wanted an upgrade i would not have stuck it out this long. have i ever mentioned how i miss my laptop on trips? my pda is making me frustrated!

Jamers no ill thoughts to you guys at all by any means. It is about ME ME ME in the group sense. I'm sorry your pilot group didn't vote in a union, but if the union wins a fight then the benefits should go to those that did vote for the union and did support it. If a percentage of my check is taken out so that I can have a hot lunch delivered to me everyday I'm flying it wouldn't be fair to me if you guys didn't pay the percentage and got the same hot lunch.

This industry is about ME ME ME just most realize the best way to increase the QOL for ME is to work together. Those that don't are finding it's best to ride on the coat tails of those that do.

To give you an example. Some of my father's crops were killed a couple years ago. The chemical company mixed the wrong chemicals and basically Rounduped some of our fields. Do to the water running from those rice fields to our other fields we had to use about $90k in additional chemicals to keep the other fields alive. With the $90k plus the loss of the killed fields we went a couple hundred thousand in to the red. We went to the chemical company but they literally laughed and said not their problem. Now we're suing them. We've already spent a great deal of time, effort, and money on lawyers. Now that things look like they are going to turn into our favor the land owner says he wants a percentage of anything we get. We told him he'd have to pay for his part of the lawyers and legal fees and he wouldn't. Do you think it's fair that we took the loss, we have been going through all the troubles, we have damn near lost our lively hood, we have paid for all the lawyers and fees, then all the sudden him walk up and get a piece of the action? Hello no... This is our fight and if we win then WE win. Not that jerk. If he wanted something out of it then he should have taken the gamble like we have because we still stand to lose everything.

I think the 2 for 1 years of service integration for Colgan pilots is the best method.


A staple is not really fair. Plus it would only create tension between the pilot groups, and we do not need that during contract negotiating season. Plus a staple would really do no good for many Pinnacle FO's (since they can't upgrade to captain anyway since they need the TT).

On the other hand, there is no question that Colgan pilots will benefit more from a merged list. A merged list is great for both pilot groups. It is great for Pinnacle pilots because they get more variety of flying and more voices in their contract negotiation. But Colgan pilots get access to equipment that they never expected to have access to. And with that comes pay.

Integrate the Colgan guys at a 2:1 ratio, and no displacement rights. That makes it so no Pinnacle pilot can bump a Colgan pilot to a different base/equipment. Future upgrades can only come from vacancy bids. A 3 year colgan pilot would get the seniority of a 1.5 year Pinnacle pilot. That way a 4 year Colgan Saab driver does not end up a CRJ-900 captain.

2:1 years of service integration for Colgan pilots. No displacements. That would be best for all involved.

Just to clarify, Colgan can be stapled to the bottom of the list.

The 2007 law concerns two unionized groups merging.

The best thing would be a strict date of hire integration. It would set precedent later on in our careers so we don't have a Usairways/America West disaster.

But in the end Colgan pilots have no say.

What do you call picketing the Q400?