LOL!!!! :D

I know that I would never want to be the sole survivor of a crash that I had some part in. Lousy controller, poor runway layout, taxiway/runway markings etc. etc...these are all mitigating factors and they all played just a big a part as not verifying runway heading prior to departure. Mistakes happen and when they do, you have to deal with the consequences. I hope he makes a speedy recovery and gets back into the cockpit. That being said, I highly doubt he'll ever see the cockpit of a 121 carrier as a required crew member ever again. You cannot deny that he must accept part of the responsibility for this crash. After all, it was the crew that pushed the thrust levers forward that morning, not anyone else.

No one on here is perfect. I guarantee everyone on here has broken a reg, talked during sterile cockpit, blasted off without synching the heading bug, etc. etc. Everyone on here is lucky though because when we did all those things, it did not cause a fatal accident. When it does, I do not think it's realistic to expect a return to passenger flying for a 121 carrier. It doesn't mean I'm not pulling for the guy...I just don't see it happening.

I believe that if I were to crash it would be for something utterly stupid.
Wrong DME selected for an appproach, or mistaking a "postion and hold" call for "cleared for T/O". In my eyes it's these everyday, mudane items that would be expected from a student pilot. These small obvious items that lurk in the background waiting for a chance to present itself.

Yes the pilots did make a mistake. However there were other factors...lights being inop, the pilots did not recieve the notam. Construction that was not notamed. Etc. Would you of made the same mistake? No one can say for sure that they would not have.

Why the devil are we spending ANY money on baseball hearings?

And unlike the doctor, he is risking his own life as well. :rolleyes:

good point... i was at LEX about 3 weeks before the crash and the runways are very confusing at the end they were at.....it was the middle of the day and i had to double check the airport diagram twice to make shure.... anyone could have made that mistake after becoming complacent..... gotta have sympathy for this guy....hope he gets back into aviation if thats what he wants to do
:cool:

We occasionally have some of our skydiving planes in and out of Lex, I encountered the same thing you did about a week prior to the accident ferrying one over to Frankfort. I can see how easy it was for them to make this mistake...

right on man....i was watching cnn when the first report of the crash came in.....when they showed the diagram of where the plane impacted in relation to the airport i knew exactly what happened well before the cause of the crash was reported....a truly sick feeling knowing i could have easily done the same:eek:

Of course there were other factors. Pilots don't just up and decide to blast off the wrong runway for no apparent reason. That's the whole point of a mistake, they thought they were doing the right thing and they weren't. Was it avoidable? Maybe, maybe not. For them; that day in that airplane at that airport it appears that it wasn't. The only point is, for those pilots on that day in that airplane at that airport, a mistake occurred that cost 49 people their lives. It sucks for everyone involved and while I wish the FO the best of luck on his recovery, I don't think it's realistic to expect to return to a Part 121 carrier. However, I've been proven wrong in the past.

At the end of the day, there was a variety of factors contributing to this accident. Some of it was the controller. Some of it was the airport. However, you can't really count out the pilot factor here. After all, the controller and the airport weren't sitting at the controls.

every major crash is usually a list of several contributing factors leading up to the accident.....the key is to recognize when things are going south and take action.....the three best examples of this are the florida air flight that took a dip in the patomic, the eastern flight that went down in the everglades, and the comair flight at LEX........all of them had a pivitol point where somone notices somthing wrong yet does nothing......gotta be on your toes at all times in this business ;)

And yet you capitalize the G in God, way to go.

Wait wait, sync'ing the heading bug??? If you sync the heading bug you just erased the desired runway. If you line up on the wrong runway and blindly hit the heading sync button, what did you just do???

SERIOUSLY, we have an instructor here at pinnacle that basically yells and screams at his students if they don't sync the heading bug. I absolutely refuse to do that. It's poor OPS...

Soooo, I hope no one sync's the heading bug while lined up, but instead VERIFIES the correct heading with your jepp/lido for that runway....

Thank you for reminding me about that!

Any comments on this aspect? Who knows, they could have done this very thing (hdg sync) and so they figured everything was ok.

Comments/better ideas?

I'm going against my original thought of not touching this thread.
 

I'm as human as the next person. I make mistakes every day. I wish I didn't.

I'm not going to stand in the way of this first officer's desire to return to flying.

In my 121 experiences, first officers are extremely busy with checklists from taxiing off the gate until entering the runway for take-off.

On a short taxi with the possibilities of having to complete "first flight of day" checklists, it's quite possible that the first time this fo looked up was a guick glance right to clear traffic and then again after the captain lined up for for takeoff.

Unless I'm mistaken, he did not physically line up the aircraft on the wrong runway, the captain did.

Take runway 20 & 16 at Richmond, VA put in pre-dawn or lower visibiity and I bet (in a simulator) that an instructor could task saturate a number of different crews and a small percentage of them would line-up incorrectly.

At least initially. Visual cues and crew experience would result in varied outcomes:

Back in Lexington - hi speed abort or increase thrust from flex to max, drop flaps to approach, launch into ground effect - was there enough space??

Chit-chat while the aircraft is in motion aside, I feel first officers can't be held responsible for the aircraft's movement while "heads down" running checklists.

Let the guy attempt to fly again.

I completely agree. This FO was at fault, just like everyone else that played a role, but you better believe, as someone else said, WE are more likely to repeat this incident than he is. You can put your money on that fact!

Being an atheist is hard enough. No need to be disrespectful too.

He's not being disrespectful just making a point of what he observed!!!

No, I'm telling him that I respect other peoples beliefs and that is why I capitalized it. But thanks for playing.

Lets not turn this thread into a Holy War, but if we do I’m on J.C’s and the Big G’s side.

Anyway you guys are right. Lexington is a weird set up. I flight Instruct for a company out of Mt. Sterling Kentucky and I’m in and out of there a lot. I can see how it can be confusing, I even got confused when I was going in and out of there a couple of times.

That is the powers that be waving their hand and saying "Watch the birdy! Watch the birdy! Don't look over at that mess we made in the Middle East, that's bad. War? What war? Our service men and women dieing in the desert? Thats crazy talk, no one wants to hear about that! Look over here! This guy who took steroids is EVIL. Look how mean and bad he is!" Your tax dollars at work folks.:rolleyes:

Seriously though, I wasn't gonna say anything but I can't hold my tongue (or fingers?). There are a lot of "Holier than thou" attitudes here. I can't believe so many here who share the same profession feel like they are immune from ever making a mistake and are absolutely crucifying a fellow aviator. Did that crew mess up big time? Absolutely. But there are any number of minor mistakes that WE ALL make EVERY DAY that could have catastrophic consequences if not corrected. In this situation the crew made a mistake that left them in a position where they didn't have time to correct it. In my opinion, if you think you are above making mistakes then you are THE MOST dangerous person in aviation. If this guy can make it back into the cockpit as a competent and qualified aviator I, for one, will definitely be cheering for him.

Absolutely. Religion's greatest legacy is its ability to divide groups, incite hatred, foster conflict and attitudes of non-tolerance and superiority. Its always funny to me that the people who have the most respect for the beliefs of others and religion are the people who do not follow one. Very curious.

Mike734, love the avatar. Wish I could slap it on my flight case.

I can't fault him for wanting to come back. It will be an extremely long and arduous road which will probably result in General Aviation flying. I doubt any regional would want to take the risk of hiring him but kudos to him for having the spirit to try. He may even know that he will most likely not fly again but that hope probably makes every day a little bit better.

We now bug (manually, not by synching) and verify the runway as our last take-off checklist. Were it not for this accident that may not be policy and it could have happened to one of us at some point.

The real tragic accidents are the ones we don't learn from--I think we have learned from this one.

Whatever works for ya. If I hit the sync button and it points to something other than the heading for the runway I was cleared on to...I know there's a problem.

Comair had a pilot with a prosthetic leg, I flew with him and he's great. He's one of the best captains I have flown with yet.

I think you can. I knew a old 727 captain who was missing a leg. He has a "special" leg he used for flying and would change it out when he got to the cockpit.

On the question of the head injury, we had a guy at 9E who was out on a medical after a bucket loader was dropped on his head. He came back for a little while, but you could tell something wasn't quite right.

What if:
 

..ATC assigns you a heading after departure?

Not a rip, I like what you wrote so far, what's your next step when given a departure heading?

Personally, I set the heading bug to the runway heading as soon as I know what runway I'll be blasting off from. When assigned a departure heading, I spin the course selector to that heading. I also fly with guys who put the departure heading and left or right turn in the scratchpad on the FMS. If I'm flying with someone like that I do both. I would venture to say that taking off on the wrong runway is a greater hazard than forgetting the departure heading and having to ask tower for it again.

My mother-in-law is a therapist. She thought more than likely this gentleman is trying to get back to what he was before his tragic accident. I said his because all the others on that flight are deceased. His survivers guilt must be overwhelming. And before I get a bunch of replies about the family, friends & relatives of those deceased, I am not trying to mitigate their pain either. My point would be his attempt to return to his job is therapeutic for him. Whether he will be able to or not, it will be important for him to try. The "suits" will decide if he can ultimately.

I like the scratchpad idea for departure heading, see I'm glad I asked for other ideas. Thanks!

I take off, climb to my minimum altitude to turn, hit HDG and dial in the heading. Yea, it's a little more work when you've got both engines...but when you go single engine and start deviating from clearances (i.e. now you would rather go straight out to get some altitude and speed on your side before yankin' and bankin') it's an easy. Hit HDG and you're good to go without having the lateral mode stuck in TO.

My preference could also be swayed by the fact that on the 145, 9 times outta 10 you're blasting off in HDG mode and have to have the heading bug pointed down the runway, otherwise the FD is going to turn you somewhere you don't want to go yet. There is no "TO" lateral mode on that thing. The closest thing to it is ROL and I don't know of any company that wants you blasting around in that mode, CRJ or ERJ operator.

I don't know about other ERJ operators but our SOP is to take off in the TO sub-mode with HDG and low-bank selected. So, yes you almost always take off in heading mode with the runway heading bugged. I've flown with one or two who like to take off in ROL mode then select HDG at acceleration height or whenever they want to make the turn with the heading already selected so that all you have to do is hit the HDG button and don't have to spin the bug to the assigned heading.

Personally, I think having HDG selected at takeoff works great for 2-engine departures and its less button pushing (meaning chances of hitting the wrong button in your haste) if you bag an engine going off a runway with an engine-out special departure procedure. Nothing like being buttholes and elbows at 500 feet AND having to fight with the FMC panel:D I'm sure there are some guys out there *cough* ExperimentalAB;) *cough* who would kickoff the FD and yell "yehaw, we's going for a ride!" but I prefer a little help from the FD so I can free up some brain bytes.

We're the same way...TO submode heading low bank. There's exceptions to it, but none of them include ROL mode.

The CRJ is a lil' different though. You have a TO lateral mode that basically maintains whatever heading you were on when you lifted off and maintains that until you select something different. We also lift off in white needles (that's pink needles for you 145 guys) so you can't twist in the departure heading with the course selector since it's coupled to the FMS.

I was always a big fan of the scratchpad for departure headings. I also use it for long taxi clearances (i.e. "Taxi Alpha Echo Romeo hold short of 22R" would get put into the scratchpad AER//22R).

I use the scratchpad for taxi instructions.
The heading bug is ALWAYS runway heading for the departure runway. If my clearance or the SID require a turn after T/O, I use the course selector in green needles to bug the heading as a reminder.

on the general topic, i wish the guy luck. i would agree with some people and say maby 121 is out of reach but i hope he gets well and gets to do some GA flying for the rest of his life.

On the topic of the heading on TO, XJ trains us to always have the runway heading set before TO. if we get a turnout or have a special engine out, i like to write it in the scratchpad or make a note of it on the TOLD card. i don't like using heading sinc on the ground. twisting it in makes sure we're where we're supposed to be.

overall, i think that i do realize how much responsibility i/we have when we fly people and their families around. i think that thought is important and without it we are setting ourselves up to be to comfortable at our job. when we get to comfortable we lose our focus and when that happens, we know what can happen. i just think that we all have alot of responsibility and that sometimes we forget about it.


fly safe

yeah that's how you would try to type it, but it would come out as AAEEERR////222RR

Very true on Collins. Not a problem on Honeywell boxes though. (one of its few redeeming qualities)

LoL, but that would require the FD to be up in the first place :D;):p

He made a mistake that cost a whole plane load of people their lives. He deserves to be fired from Comair. People are fired everyday from other airlines for damaging aircraft or putting people in danger. He helped total one and kill people. If he wants to apply to another company with an accident on his record, more power to him.

People are fired for showing up to work drunk, that is certainly poor judgement. We are paid to make difficult decisions and decipher charts and procedures, he failed at doing his job and subsequently a bunch of people died.

I am not saying it couldn't have been me, but if it was I would understand what the implications were

This is what I've been thinking all along. I just didn't know how to say it without sounding pompous. If other pilots are turned down for not having a college degree, high enough GPA, internal rec, weak social skills or for having a criminal record, DUI/DWI, speeding tickets or poor jep knowledge, it is my opinion that someone who was partially responsible for the loss of 49 lives while serving as crew member should not be allow in a 121 cockpit. That is exactly what all of these previously mentioned items are in place for -- to, as best as humanly possible, weed out those who are prone to make mistakes. I feel for the guy and pray his conscience to be at ease, but practically speaking, its just not practical to allow this.
Again, I say this humbly and realize that these things can happen to anyone, me included. But when someone establishes a record for themselves, it's impossible to ignore it.

In my opinion he should be desuaded from flying an airliner again. I feel that he should be persuaded to become a sim instructor for Comair. He has lived through the worst nightmare a pilot faces, an accident caused by neglect and being the only survivor of a fiery crash. I feel his experience from this can do more in the training enviroment than just climbing back into the cockpit.