50 seater = welfare?
 

True or false.....those of us who fly 50 seaters will be out of a job in the near future? (unless our airline gets more larger a/c)

I say false, all regional airlines are gonna start going to larger RJs. Those who don't(if they're dumb enough not to), will send everyone to the unemployment line.

I kinda figured at least one point in my life I'd be on Govt. cheese...

Maybe be a little too extreme

well... youll get unemployment first... still a lot of speculation, but if you do get unemployed, and you live in certain states, use that opportunity to let the government buy you a type rating in the airplane(s) of your choice

Assuming the people that work in your state KNOW what you are talking about when you mention the WIA, as well as assuming they (the state govt) have the money there to do it.

now how does that work? and what states i might have to move...

The 50 still has a few more years of service left in it, the transition isn't going to happen over night. They'll get interested soon enough if they want to remain profitable/competitive for contracts with the majors.

It's the majors that want to get rid of the fuel inefficient 50. XJT, TSA, AWAC and whoever else are workin on it, i guarantee it. I'm willing to bet they're just not releasing their course of action to the employees.

Even though Big Sky and Air Midwest have flown west in the last 12 months, the mighty Beech 1900 is still hauling passengers.

The 50 seat small jet has a long future ahead of it...albeit in largely reduced fleet sizes.

It's called the WIA, Work Force Investment Act. You can look it up online. I never had to do it, but a lot of my friends at ACA used it to help finance their 737 types before going to SouthWest. Another used it for a G4 type. It basically says that if you work in a technical job (like us), and getting money will give you some additional training to help you secure a job when you are unemployed, the state will help fund a part of that training.

The key is, you have to be unemployed at the time you apply for it. And like I mentioned above, most government employees won't know what you are talking about. And like I also mentioned above, if the state is out of funds for that particular program, you are SOL.

It doesn't matter where you live. What matters is where your domicile is. You'd be stuck with that states plan (with some possible exceptions depending on how hard you try to work the situation).

Everyone I know who has used the plan typically has to make a lot of phone calls and be fairly insistent to get things set up properly. Fortunately, Higher Power knows the drill well and can be very helpful.

I love how 10 years ago these 50 seat jets were super-fuel efficient, now they are not, yet they burn the same amount hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

There not really fuel inefficient as you think. If the market can only sustain 50 seaters than none of the 70 seater jets would be more fuel efficient. As for Prop planes flying the routes, they are only more efficient on shorter routes. Anything over 300-500NM range would make the 50 seater jet more efficient.

Do the math, our 145XR's burn 2500 lbs/hr at FL370 and cruise at a TAS of 460. We would get to our destination in a fraction of the time of a Prop flying at FL250 and burning 2400 lbs/hr. We would actually be more fuel efficient.

Hey buddy. I initially thought they were inefficient too. However, we do get there a lot quicker, meaning we only burn fuel for 2 hours instead of 2.5 hours or 3 hours. Also look at my post above, some of the props burn the same as us when we are at FL370 and they are lower and slower. In that sense they would burn fuel longer, more total, and take longer to get there.

Ream did say that most of our markets on Branded would burn more per person on a 70-seater since those markets can only sustain 50-seaters right now.

Wow! 2500 GAL/hr.....that's pretty inefficient.

really, why don't you give me comparisons of props and 70-seater jets and their TAS at altitude?

But how often do we get up to 370 in the RJs?? Not very often. Especially in the northeast, and short hops in the midwest, like we do with our E135s out of CVG. The only way the 50 seat RJs will be efficient is on long, skinny routes to secondary airports, where the load factors don't warrant a 70 seater. Keep in mind too that for the 70 seater, the crew generally gets paid more as well (higher Capt, senior FO pay, and 2 FAs vs 1 on the 50 seater).

I think he was trying to say that... you meant LBs instead of Gals.

:)

Darn, grosshole was quicker than me.

It's a shame that joke went RIGHT over your head.

I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, but the last time I flew, the gages on the EICAS displayed fuel in POUNDS PER HOUR, not GALLONS PER HOUR.

Using the assumed fuel density out of our CFM, calculate 2500 gallons into pounds. It's MORE than the XR can even hold.

Also, like I said, I'm not the sharpest tack. But at 370 I don't usually see 460 TAS, it's usually around 440-445. If you want to see something like 460, you usually have to be around FL280/290.

muuuuuuuuuwaaaaaaahhahhaha Im doing some Nassau turns next week, lets see how much gas it will take the Q to do that ;)

Will someone please tell me why it is good for pilots to have RJs (flown by Regional Pilots making much less than their mainline counterparts) flying routes that compete with the DC-9 and its progeny, baby Boeings, and short 'Buses?

imagine that though

Go Jets gets more 700's and 900's, and TSA gets rid of all of their EMB-145's, shutting down TSA

ALPA would have a field day with that one, but by the time there's any resolution, TSA pilots will be reaching age 65

Pinnacle and Comair also have a lot of CRJ200s. More likely scenario, for those of you worried about your jobs is that regionals will have a reconsolication to fewer regionals left standing and almost all of you if not all of you will be absorbed into one or the other and I do not foresee any regional pilots currently flying for large E 145 or CRJ200 fleet regional getting furloughed. As an example, Comair will most likely be sold to another regional like Skywest or XJT. Compass will most likely be sold to a regional that wants a ready made inventory of E175 trained pilots, could be Pinnacle, XJT or maybe even another major who wants a wholly owned regional.

The reason for this is because majors are now all focusing on their growth in the international sector which really is the money maker and will see the biggest growth in the next 5 years. Meanwhile, more and more of their domestic flights are being subcontracted out to regionals, using 76 seat RJs. As an example, at XJ, 3 to 4 new domestic destinations are being added every month. ie. Starting April, XJ will fly CRJ9 to ATL, PVD, MEM, YWG (Winnepeg, Canada). I am not saying this is a good thing in the long run, but in the short run, all of you currently flying E145s, CRJ200s, Saabs. Q400s will have your jobs. In fact XJ is planning to hire another 300 or more pilots in 2008. I am sure this will also be the case with other large regionals once the dust settles with this merger mania.

You would have to be able to get a hold of the guys that were in charge of DALPA in the 90's to get the answer to that.

Easiest answer, it was BELOW them to fly a smaller plane. Also, it's no secret the 50 seaters were inefficient, but if they were flown at "regional/commuter" work rules and pay rates, it wouldn't matter. Now that some "regional/commuter" work rules have surpassed those at SOME majors as far as impacting operating cost per revenue generated from the size of the airframe, that inefficiency is being realized. With the exception of AWAC in the 90's, few if any regional CBA's were anywhere near what they are now. That is, of the "regional/commuters" that actually had CBA's/work rules at THAT time.

Maybe when they write Vol.III of flying the line, it will be called "Flying the Line Vol.III, the RJ Years".

That's a pretty funny example. XJT being able to buy somebody, that is.

In the long run this is NOT a good thing. Hopefully, this trend will reverse itself if the oil price keeps going up because RJs will no longer be economically viable. It will be cheaper for the majors to fly 100 to 110 seat jets by newhire FOs and newly upgraded CAs at mainline pay. As an example, newhire FO at NWA, UAL starts out at approx $30.00/hr. The new CA payrate on these new equipments will probably be on par with MD88, or DC9 payrate so it won't be that much more than the payrate currently being paid for CRJ9 or E175 crew at regionals.

nice catch, totally ignored that fact. Corrected it

That's a pretty funny example. XJT being able to buy somebody, that is.[/quote]

Dojetdriver,

XJT was just an example but it may surprise you to find out how much money XJT management has squirreled away. If XJT is to survive, and I think they will because of the way they are run, they will need to buy up another regional with a ready made 76 seat RJ pilots like Compass.

Yeah dude, I know, I work there. That's why I included the word example, like you did.

If that is per engine, yeah I would say so. On the -700 up at 370/.82 we tend to indicate about 1800 per engine/total 3600 per hr if I remember correctly. I have no clue what ATR's, Q's, and 1900's burn and where they relate to the RJ's. Wow! Totally Hijacked this thread.....Oooopppss;)

a 145 cruising @ FL370 will typically burn 1200 lbs/hr/eng, so 2500 lbs/hr total is pretty accurate, the key is getting up there. Differences in fuel burn between FL300-FL370 is somewhat significant.

Yeah its the total amount. You proved my point though about the 50 seater not being as terrible as people think.

This isn't too accurate, but close enough to prove the point why the 50 seater can't die. The Speeds aren't too different, but you can see that even with 70 passengers on board it still is the same if not more per passenger. If the market can only sustain a 50 seater than a 70 seater would lose a ton more money.

EMB-145XR - 50 passengers
.80 MACH
2500 lbs/hr
50 lbs/passenger

-700 - 70 passengers
.82 MACH
3600 lbs/hr
51.5 lbs/passenger

Good post FJ,

My settlements exactly. If we'all didn't fly jets at the regional level, those routes and airplanes would be at the majors, we'dall be working for the majors, chicks chasing us and our fat wallets down the concourse....

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Funny man.

What if?
 

This realization has come as oil went from $40 a barrel 7 years ago to $100-$110.

So since this country has no energy policy...nothing is going to stop oil from hitting $150 in the next 6-7 years. So what do the majors do then?

Right now they still haven't raised ticket prices enough, so I'm wondering if anything smaller than a 777 will be considered a gas hog????

Sorry for the drift.

About $2 more than the 50. Will not make a diff.

The dash-200 burns 1300 lbs/hr at FL250 (600-650 lbs/hr per engine). At least that's what our cruise performance charts give us, at around 275 KTS TAS.

Missouri retrained my furloughed aunt from American (TWA) on a citation.....

If this is true when will they begin interviewing again and when would one expect a class date? I know a couple of guys that interviewed in Nov. and Dec. 07 and were told to expect a class date in April. They havn't heard a thing from HR since.