Wash out?
 

Am I considered a washout if I did not get signed off for my checkride? Here's the story. My sim instructor suggested that I was in need of more sim sessions before I get signed off for the type ride and put in a recommendation to the head of flight training. The sim got the best of me and I was behind it majority of the time. If I got 2-3 more sim sessions, I could have corrected it. Anyways, I got sent home waiting for a call from the head of flt. training and a few days later, I was asked to resign due to the availability of sim schedule being backed up. So does that mean, I'm considered a washout? I didn't even get to take the oral...

In all honesty, it doesn't take much to be ready for a checkride in the allocated sims at an airline. If you can't do it, do you really think you should be flying around paying pax? I don't.

I guess it depends on how they record it in your training record. It kind of sounds like they're being nice by asking you to resign.

The bigger question is what are you going to say at future interviews when they ask "so, what were you doing before this? Why did you leave?"

What do I say? O_o

Don't let haters(marcel) get you down everyone has a bad day hopefully you will get another shot don't screw it up next time. Try your best to plead your case as much as possible if you get a chance.

What airline was this at?

Other companies might understand depending on the training reputation of your carrier.

Yep..........

What regional and what issues in the sim?

My understanding is that if you resign, it doesn't go into the PRIA records. They did you a favor. Being terminated is another story - that shows up at your next gig.

Most majors and the like that I have applied ask "Have you ever failed to complete a traning course?" In this case you will have to explain it.

This is for lack of better words, BS. Don't let anyone tell you this crap. Some people take longer than others and it is also says something for the training you received. Don't let some yahoo on an internet board tell you that you can't be a pilot. There are very few pilots that don't fail a ride sooner or later.

you say, i could not get my profiency up to atp standards and they asked me to resign instead of signing me off for my checkride when i was not ready

isnt that what happened? would you tell them anything other than the truth?

Just hang in there. Honesty is always the best policy, and there are a few regionals that will give you a shot. I hear from these boards pinnacle,psa,air wisky are understanding over such things. Learn from your last experience and move forward. there may be a few others, so maybe some more folks on these boards can chime in.

If your curious as to what they put on your PRIA records, do a check on yourself. If they asked you to resign and it shows resigned during training and nothing else, they did you a HUGE favor. Learn from it and keep on trucking!

That's AWAC for you. They have a tendency to do the ole "take a couple weeks off and we'll get you back in here for some more sim time" thing and then call a couple days later and tell you to either resign or get fired. The training department at AWAC leaves a lot to be desired.

UHHHH Okay, never mind I recommended them,YIKES!!

You make a good and a stupid point jay! 1. Good= Yes everyone fails a "ride" at some point. 2. Stupid= NO!!! Very few people fail out of a training program for a job as a professional pilot. At this point in your career failure is not acceptable. Once you pass the initial training and are off probation then failing a PC can be delt with.

Just remember there is a HUGE diffrence between failing your Commercial Checkride with the FAA and failing a training program at a airline.

With tht said. Again this isn't the end of your career. Just learn from it and dont repeat it.

He mention a Type Ride. Then washout? What am I missing? After all he is Rustypilot.

"everyone has a bad day"

Worst excuse ever.

I have bad days all the time.

The key is letting a bad day get in the way of doing your job. Next time around (which there will be because even heaven is hiring) leave it all at home. Go to the sim focus on the task at hand. You'll get it. I feel bad our training dept didn't get you more time. There were a couple pretty good pilots in my AWAC class that had the same deal.

Always be honest on an interview. I have 4 friends who were asked to resign out of training with TSA who are now far better off at XJT and 9E. They were truthful and with PRIA you have to be.

Autopilot -

New to the civilian side of the house here. What is this PRIA thing I am hearing so much about and how do you "do a check on yourself."
Any help would be appreicated.

USMCFLYR

better off at 9e?

Pilot Record Improvement Act. Basically it's the info that the company wil have about your training history.
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/

A few airlines can deal with a failure in initial training but will immediately terminate someone for failing the first PC.

A failure in the "almighty" 121 training is not the end of the world, nor the end of a flying career. It is unfortunate, not unacceptable. It is not a reason to go jump off the nearest bridge, pick up a few DUIs, or otherwise give up on yourself. The airline might have found the performance to be unacceptable, thus the "resign" or "sent home" response.

Go cry for a bit, then dust yourself off and get back flying something. Polish up the resume a bit, practice the two sentence reponse to the interview question on why you failed, practice the three sentence response for what you will do to make sure you won't fail in the next session, then get the resumes sent out and updated once again. Move on, it's all one can do.

Good luck!

Welcome to the club Rusty!! Only I got a full fledged failure.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...sted+checkride

Check your PRIA records. If there is no failure listed then you you can answer honestly, "I never failed a checkride." However, as someone else said, if you are asked if you did not complete training, you would have to answer yes.

Eitherway, it sucks. And it is a big stike against you. But YOU ARE NOT OUT! There are folks like Marcal who will say you should never fly pax (guess flying a 74 filled with boxes is okay), I say nuts to them! Take a long, hard, honest look at why you failed and figure out how be successful next time.

Don't be supprized if you don't get interviews/offers for a while. You may have to go back to whatever you were doing before. Can't go back? Find ANY flying job you can (pipeline patrol, fish spotting, hauling checks, anything), but keep flying. And keep applying! Look into those "evil bottom feeders" that so many folks bash: they may not be eden, but they are 121 and could give you a chance to prove yourself.

Suck it up, grit your teeth, and get back in there!!!

You can ask your previous employers' training department for a copy of your records, you can get it under pria or the freedom of information act. I have looked at other sites and have found some people who did this and wondered why they were having such a hard time getting a job was because thier previous employer had tried to screw them over, one guy said he worked for a very large regional airline that knowingly put into his records he was the worse pilot ever etc. Only after his lawyer threatened to sue the bastards did they change his records, think I saw the information on jetcareers or flightinfo.

I think its' good advice to check your records, and while info given under pria is protected, if the employer willfully gives out false information in an effort to sabotage your career, you can sue the dog crap out of them.

Have you tried applying elsewhere to see if you'll get a call for an interview, at the least? Try, try again bud.

i would try to complete a training course of some type even if it was 135 flying freight for cherry air. get some jet time somewhere.

try to complete a program somehwere else without the pressure. you just need more grooming and experience it sounds like. this will build your confidence and the next time those jets speeds and SOPs won't get you.

it will work out for you in the end. i know it will

(Not wanting to highjack the thread)

While on the subject of getting a copy of PRIAs, you can also get a copy of your medical file just to make sure somebody elses restriction doesn't get into your stuff. I have the same first, middle, and last name as private pilot who has "issues", so I ckeck my stuff every couple of years.

PRIA only takes effect at the time of hire, at which point the hiring airline is required to submit PRIA requests to anyone who has employed you as a pilot. These past employers are required to respond by forwarding all of your training and flight-ops discipline records, going back 5 years IIRC. Non-flight ops discipline records are not supposed to be returned and includes such things as punching your CP, phantom pooper, constantly late for work, etc.

There is no "central repository" for PRIA records, they consist simply of whatever records your past employer has. In the case of a part 91 employer, they might have no records at all. For this reason you cannot do a PRIA check on yourself (you CAN request all of your FAA records at any time, and should probably do so).

The only way you can find out what records a certain PRIA request will return is to check a box on the form which obligates the respondents to send a copy to you also...the downside is that by the time you get the info it's probably too late to resolve any issues. But check the box anyway, just so you know for future job hunts.

PRIA requests do NOT go to the military services (active or reserve). A hiring airline will want to see your DD-214 (the full-length copy), and military flight records...they know how to read between the lines on a DD-214 (so...why didn't you get a NMCAM at the end of your last tour?).

Depends on your instructor. My instructor focused completely on maneuvers and flows where I was never taught the FMS. I ended up having to get a spare sim because when I did my checkride I was unsure how to use several of it's functions. The computer trainers were broken and since my instructor didn't cover it I had no knowledge of it.

There's no shame in not making it. There is shame in working so long to make it this far then to quit.

I'm with the guys who say to go to cargo. Summertime is a great time to get comfortable with single pilot operations, then survive a winter in hard IFR and you'll be "line current" and very confident for your next step.

If you don't have the 1200 hours for part 135 IFR PIC, you might try "VFR only" operations in places like LAS and PHX where they only require the PIC to have 500 hours if they're flying cargo or less than 10 PAX.

Your experience is unfortunate, yet not terribly uncommon, saw it many many many times when i was a new-hire at Trans States, happened on a repeat basis until Feb-Mar 07, when some changes were made and extra sim sessions were awarded, before then, they'd just send you packing. Lots of those buddies are now off at other regionals, several at expressjet and are loving it there, so just remember that NO this isn't the end of the world.

As far as your question, technically, you did bust out of training. However, you most likely don't have a failure on your training record. You'll have to explain to individuals why you resigned from training, just be honest, explain what you learned from the situation, and move on. If the first company doesn't hire you, try again, eventually you'll find someone who will, and at some point in your career, this will just be a far distant memory.

You seem to a have a little bit of problems with those computer things there TD. I believe something with a Merlin GPS seems to ring a bell?

If what you're referring to is the worst I ever do then I'll still be miles ahead of most!

i'd say techinally, he didn't wash out of training. never took a ride. did he wash out? yes? were they humane with the "resign or else" yes. that's SOP in the world

Best advice right there.

Never, ever, ever give up.

Some people have the talent to learn and retain new tricks and procedures on a whim. Others need to see things a different way before a concept is grasped. This all goes back to Fundamentals of Instructing for the CFI.

This is a good post for those who are starting or are thinking about jumping into the airlines. You have to have the right attitude and understand what your objectives are and how you're going to accomplish them and most importantly that you are READY for it. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in classes that should not have been there in the first place. I think it's because people think that that just because they were "hired" and considered employees the airline will not fail them. There is such a big learning curve from flying a 172 VFR vs a jet and quite frankly from my experience airlines aren't sympathetic and they'll give you the bare minimums you have to know. Before you go into training put in the effort to be ready study up on high performance flying and get as much info as you can so that you're at least not going to be clueless when class starts.

Believe it or not - I'm getting the feeling from this thread that the airline industry in a lot harder on it's hirees than the military has been on it's student pilots or newly winged aviators in the last few years. It is VERY hard to failed someone out of flight school now. The amount of money invested keeps rising and the numbers keep falling. Cost saving solutions meant to reduce the time and money it takes to train also means the past experience isn't there - in the way of total hours or discipline (think the elements of CRM).

I see this as being somewhat akin to the regionals lowering their minimum required and all the chatter here about very low time pilots being invited to training and then whether they are ready for that training or not before they start.

Of course some credit has to be given to an industry where the standardization is so high that there are many success stories of these same low times pilots completing training and moving on to the airlines and eventually becoming high time Captains. Kudos.

Someone else said that the most stable flying job you'll ever get is in the military. Strange thought - but from what I see on these threads that just might be the truth!

USMCFLYR

I dunno my Air Force students got it handed to them when they went in. They spent hours on end getting ready for it every day. Best thing for them is they didn't have to "unlearn" something. I spent time in the program with them and it's unlike any training I've seen anywhere else. However training only gets you started and experience takes you the rest of the way. That's where I think the civil world actually ends up taking the lead. 90+hrs a month instructing and flying 135/121 builds a lot of experience in a quick mannor. There are many AF guys/gals out there flying heavies with less time than these regional guys.

TD -

No, no, no.......Not saying they don't work hard - oh they do! But for instance when I was first briefed on the AF grading system making it's way into the Primary VT at NAS Whiting (and forgive me because I don't remember all the details at all since it didn't concern me at the time), I remember something about a student was able to get a *down* or a *SOD* or whatever you want to call it nowadays and he doesn't even get remedial training on what he performed in an unsatisfactory manner before he moves on to the next flight. And as long as he doesn't do this a few times IN A ROW then he continues on.

Sorry to sound like one of those OLD GUYS saying that it was harder back when - but you got three strikes and then you were out (and that was THROUGHOUT FLIGHT SCHOOL). I sit on a lot of boards of all kinds in my position currently and I see that 99% of them are trainable and they get the extra training and they make good fleet pilots. But sometimes - one that you know isn't going to make it just won't go away because the head freds don't believe the guys that are flying with them day in and day out. they tell us to make the hard call and then when we do they tell us we aren't training them right.

Agreed on the TT on the regionals and the 121 and many other types of flying, BUT - remember also that flying from point A to point B has it's limitation too. Many of those military heavy flying guys are flying into places that take an extra portion of CRM to get into with other **things** to think about too. Heck - I'd have some more time too if so many of my flights weren't 0.9 (lots of sorties - few hours):D

All flying is good flying....just some is better than others!
(that was told to me by a senior in high school when I was but a freshman - but the word flying was replaced:o)

USMCFLYR

HHAHA that's a good quote.

When I went thru UPT in 1986......damn was it that long ago..... it was three in a row.....pack your bags..... we started 66 graduated 27 from my original class. I have a friend of mine who is a retired LTC fighter pilot type who is also a sim instructor at CAFB UPT. He says that there are few and far between washouts these days and that they will do just about anything to get someone thru. Good ...bad .... i dont know... but I can say that it was different..."back in the day"....