mesa airlines
 

I have heard that Mesa hires Low time pilots. I read an article that said the internet aplication weeds out anyone with less then a thousand hours. Here is my question. How are people getting hired with less than a thousand hours if the article I read is true?

Mesa's minimums for new hires off the street are 1000 & 100. However, they have two pilot training programs which can get you hired with about 300 hours.

One program is for people with little or no flight experience. It takes two years, costs a bunch of money, but has a high success rate (about 80%).

The shorter program requires you to show up with a COM ME. It takes 4-6 months, costs I think $12-14K, and has a similar success rate.

You can read my other posts about "buy-a-job" programs for low time pilots, but this is one of a very few such programs that really performs as advertised. Details are on Mesa's web site.

Actually, you can show up without the Commercial ME.

I'm not completely sure about this, but I think that most of the low time guys hired by Mesa are from MPD (mesa pilot development). Keep in mind that most of the pilots hired from MPD have been flight instructors with Mesa and probably have around 700+ hrs by the time they graduate and interview(from the ASU program anyway). They have hired guys out of MPD with close to 300tt but those are rare from what I gather. The rest of the guys that come in usually have more than that. Or they have at least been instructing long enough to tell some hilarious stories. Again these aren't definite numbers, just my observations on guys who are in the simulators, or have been hanging around to get interviewed. Its a mixed basket.

Actually, the people that come from the Junior Colleges (San Juan in Farmington, NM and Midland College in Midland, TX) do not become instructors in their path. Most of us finish with around 300 hours.

Really? I assumed that they would do things pretty much the same. They don't tell us much about Farmington. . Have you gotten to go in the CRJ sim yet? Sometimes they let our instrucors ride along and apparently you can hardly tell it's not real. I'm pretty jacked to get to do that even though its a couple years off. There doesn't seem to be too much respect for MPD guys around here. But after hearing about those two dip ****s at Pinacle who thought their CRJ 200 was an F-16 and augered it into the ground, I cant blame them. But on the other hand, they make it sound as if you make it through and can manage to button your shirt up and tie your shoes you get the job. Only a few guys make it each year. And of the people who do interview each year, a lot are the instructors who have come from other schools like UND and taught for a year. But about the whole pay thing were new pilots are driving down pay. I thought that unions were suposed to make sure that kind of thing didn't happen? I am young and niave though I long to be as cynical as the older pilots.

Kind of off topic a bit but why did the Delta flying have to go under the Freedom certificate?

As for the Delta thing, there was some technicality in the regs that forced them to do so. They told me why but I forgot.

With regards to the MPD program, there are idiots from all walks of life. To think badly of all MPD students because of two idiots is kind of silly if you ask me. I would never dream of doing anything like they did, nor is there anything in the training that would make it seem to be OK totry. Idiots are idiots, no matter where they went to school. I've been to the sim in Farmington, it was OK. Having the systems class and the sim was a definite plus in understanding a jet aircraft. I have been assigned the ERJ, and frankly the systems are quite similar (the ERJ is more simple in some respects).

The program offers a guaranteed INTERVIEW, not a guaranteed JOB. I know of two people from Midland who didn't make it through the interview, and one that washed out in the sim. I suspect these people did in fact have the impression all they needed was a pulse to succeed.

Most of us have worked our asses off, simply want to fly airplanes and avoid the politics and bad attitudes that seem to be prevelant.

"Most of us have worked our asses off, simply want to fly airplanes and avoid the politics and bad attitudes that seem to be prevelant"

I'm sure you do. You have to ask yourself why the high time guys have such bad attitudes towards 300 hour jet F/O's, JO, and MAPD. Stick with it, though, and they day will come when it all makes sense...

Dude (or dudette)... just to be clear, I appreciate the wisdom you guys pass on here. I know I have a lot to learn, and that is why I am here taking it all in. I know there are reasons you feel the way you do. I am simply trying to keep a positive attitude in the face of challenge. I have no delusions that I am anything more than maybe slightly past clueless. :D

Good attitude. Every low time guy on these boards wading through the crap should be commended for asking questions and learning something about the industry. It is worthwhile. It will make you a more savy applicant when your time comes.

It's a shame that part of pilot training isn't industry indoc. Of course management wouldn't want that, because they want all the eager, pie-eyed, clueless, $19/hour FO's they can get. Hey, and if you already hate unions, all the better.

Pre-bankruptcy Delta ALPA had scope which precluded any regional which served Delta from operating any aircraft over about 70 seats (not sure the exact number).

Since Mesa operates 900's, Mesa could not provide regional service to Delta, even though the 900's were flying for AWA/USA, not Delta. I'm not sure why they (Delta ALPA) cared about 900s that were not operating in their system, but that was the language.

Freedom is technically not Mesa (though owned by MAG), so using the Freedom certificate complied with the scope (which was silly to begin with). I'm not sure how bankruptcy has affected that.

BINGO, Rick. That is precisely the explanation I got when I arrived in Phoenix- I just couldn't remember with all the other stuff being crammed into my brain. You sure have your ear to the ground!

So is it wrong to say that freedom sounds a lot like go jets? And if thats teh case how come they dont get as much "publicity" as go jets?

Does anyone know if the families of the two pilots from Pinnacle who crashed are going to get any money? I heard they were going to sue the airline. Though after listening to the voice recorder and other stuff, I can't imagine why they would get any. And just to clarify, they weren't MPD pilots.
Though after hearing about that I'm not exactly psyced to have Pinnacle fly me home to Wausau from Minneapolis.
Any mesaba pilots out there? You guys probably know where Wausau is:D its sucks doesn;t it. And if you get stuck overnight that sucks even more. You get to smell the paper mill all night! :(

Freedom was basically the same as GoJet when it started. The Freedom flying was "recaptured" by Mesa (ALPA) pilots after the current, substandard, contract was ratified. So the Freedom pilots now are not the same one's that f*cked their brothers over at its' inception.

Slice is right on! With all the lowtimers drooling over these airplanes and the attitudes that 300+ hours makes them deserve to fly a jet though we can surely have another incident. With Delta in trouble there couldn't be a better time. They can actually screw all the brothers at Mesa and Delta at the same time! I think we could call this one a threesome.

XtremeF150

The families did sue. The pilots in question were acting like total @sses on the tape...HOWEVER, the airplane WAS certified to F410, even though every experienced operator knew damn well that the airplane was really marginal above the mid-30's. Additionally, GE and/or bombardier knew about the Core-lock phenomenon which supposedly rendered the engines inoperable after the flame-out, but this information was not available to rank-and-file pilots at any airline that I know of, and I'm not sure if the airlines even knew about it. I suspect that they have a case since transport categort airplanes are supposed to be able to maintain their service ceiling without stalling or flaming out, and transport category engines are supposed to be re-startable after a flame out.

The FO was a brand-new pay-for-training guy out of Gulfstream. The CA was ERAU.

I must say I can understand the animosity some have towards MPD pilots. I am getting ready to go into the Farmington CRJ sim here in a few months. IMHO the group of guys in my class are some of the hardest working and most intelligent people I've seen. We have all worked really hard to get where we are and are willing to work just as hard to reach a level that some would view as "enough time to be worthy". These guys are worthy of some respect because it definitely wasn't handed to them.

If you're wondering about the animosity towards some MAPD types...the following post (copied from another forum) shows why some folks have suspicions about the maturity, judgement, and implulse control of the MAPD product. During the course of his highly literate and constructive rant, This MAPD grad blames the pinnacle crash on CFI's (his info is wrong too, the pinnacle FO was a low time PFT type):

" those 2 dumb asses that stalled the crj for pinnacle, before planting it like a daisy in jefferson city mo. were not PFT or mapd type , they were both the brilliant cfi types, the same type of guys on here that think their SH*t doesn't stink....the same goofy bastards that sit around being complacent all the time at the flight schools, not in the mood to fly with their students because they are sick of the student needing 4 or 5 trys to get a holding pattern down...calling their students a bunch of dumb asses for that reason alone.......if they had a better atitude before coming to work, showed a little more enthusiasm and energy, not to mention, communicate to the student better or try a different way of getting the point across, then it wouldn't take 4 or 5 trys to enter a hold right nor would it have cost the student and extra $500....but mr. bad ass cfi doesn't care, he's getting his $12 an hr. pay for the extra flights and of course building 3-5 extra hours of time, plus he gets to go make fun of the dumb ass students with his jackoff cfi buddies.....actually, i am changing my mind now....i think i will go get my cfi now, this sounds pretty fun....i'll go ride around looking out the window, telling my student he needs a few more lessons on slow flight, padding the flight time a bit and of course earning me a few more of those HARD earned bucks.....BUT, most importantly, i will have earned the respect of these COK S*ckers on these pilot forums...........p.s. S*ck my 300 hr C*ck "

:eek:

Obviously there are many older career changers who do MAPD on their own dime (not daddy's), and I'm sure they are just fine. Bottom line though 1000/100 is the accepted standard in the industry. If you are fortunate enough to get in without paying your dues, fine, but you need to be humble about until you get enough time to know what's really going on. I was damn humble my first year on line and I had an ATP!

I would just like to thank who ever wrote that for making those of us who go to flight schools look like even bigger *******s and flaming douche bags:mad: .
I'm gonna get raped for going here. Oh well; at least I know it's coming.

Hey, just don't end up like me...broke and jobless. I'm so broke, I can't afford a crash pad even if I do get a job. Save your money for the after training/getting started expenses. Even a prison inmate gets 3 squares a day and an unlimited gym membership for free.

"We have all worked really hard to get where we are and are willing to work just as hard to reach a level that some would view as "enough time to be worthy"

I keep hearing how hard MAPDer's work and how much effort they put in. That's great. But how does that hard work in the classroom, CRJ sim, and limited flight training, make you competent to be a 121 jet F/O at 300 hours? That's the thing, you won't have the level of experience SOME Mesa capts would like to see. Others don't mind babysitting you until you have 200 or 300 hours in the right seat and somewhat get it figured out. Your company and the FAA could care less, you meet their standard. But some of us out in the real world just flat out expect more out of the guy sitting next to us. That's based on our backgrounds and experiences and the crazy things we've seen out on the line.

So what is the best way to break into the industry without 'being one of those guys'? It dosen't sound like most of you actual airline pilots out there think much of MAPD (or any other fast track programs). Which guys make the best (no babysitting) f/o? Is those that have been instructing the last 2-3 years to build hours? It is a scary thought having 300 or even 600 hours guys sitting in the right seat of a jet. From your guys (actual airline pilots) experiance what is the magic number of hours that the competent (again no babysitting) newbie f/o have?

Well one of my first instructors many moons ago who had a ton of hours, did the CFI route, wasn't babysat, and would be considered by some high time captains as the type they would love to fly with is now pushing up daisies because he deviated from the prescribed LOC approach minimums in low vis conditions and took 13 people with him. I have the upmost respect for ALL pilots and I will surely be humble as a baby F/O but if you think the MPD'ers are handed it all, think again. Sure some skate by but most don't.

I hope nobody is arguing that *all* pilots coming out of flight factories are lesser aviators or people. I got some friends in CAPT (Matty P. we'll call him for this example) who work really hard and get as much out of the program as they could. They're great pilots. Albeit, we all come out of the shop with hardly any real world experience compared to all the pilots out there, but that doesn't necessarily make us bad pilots or bad people. Just inexperienced.

I came out of CAPT, and I have no experience in 121 operations. I walked out of CAPT not feeling confident about my skills behind a jet, even though the FAA says I passed their standards with that DC-9 type rating. Then again, the FAA will give you enough rope to hang yourself with (as my former CFI like to tell me). By no means do I personally feel I am qualified to fly a jet despite what's displayed on that piece of plastic the FAA issued me.

Everybody gets babysat a little, it's just that the wider range of experiences you have as a pilot, the more you bring to the operation. Someone who's done some 135 freight is the best. Also, having a variety of experiences as a CFI is good. IFR, multi, different types.

Baby Sitting
 

Albeit, we all come out of the shop with hardly any real world experience compared to all the pilots out there, but that doesn't necessarily make us bad pilots or bad people. Just inexperienced.


Alright, the real difference with the "other guys" is that although they didn't know anymore than you PFT type's when they finished, they didn't go take 50 - 90 lives at a time into their hands at over 400 knots. If a captain on one of these flights was to become incapacitated with a malfunction of almost an major system (especially the autopilot) there would be a need for at least that many body bags...If there is enough left for even that.
These "other guys" are those that realized how little they really knew at the minimum time to be a commercial pilot. They are a few of the lucky that found out that most of the learning begins when they took the left seat and 1 life at a time into their hands on daily basis. This environment, although challenging provides a continually safe environement to FINISH their learning process.

XtremeF150

Well said...

I'm not following you here-'left seat, one life at a time, on a daily basis'-what are you talking about?

So whats the answer? Keep new hires in a sim until they reach enough hours to be considered "safe" in case the captain becomes incapacitated? I have seen plenty of instructors in numerous venues getting regional jobs with their 2000TT with ZERO knowledge of how to even start the engines on an RJ. Are they really that much safer with their 2000TT in a 172 if they happen to have a captain who has become incapacitated? Don't kid yourself. Would I feel comfortable putting my family on an RJ with a 300TT F/O? No. Would I feel comfortable putting my family on an RJ with 2000TT in 172's F/O? No.

The difference is that the CFI with 2000 hours in the 172 has more than likely been there and seen that enough times to know how to handle himself and mature. If that instructor was worth anything, he has gone out and scared himself more than a few times and THAT is what makes them a more competent pilot than the 300 hour wonder. In addition, through the course of instructing you learn A LOT! Having to explain things multiple ways or just knowing everything there is to know about a subject so you don't sound like an idiot when a student asks you to explain something makes you a much more knowledgeable pilot. For example: I've never flown an aircraft with a bleed air system but I can explain how bleed air is used for cabin pressurization, engine starting and ice protection.

Bottom line, I would rather fly next to (or as a passenger with) the 2000 hour CFI who knows how to handle himself in a tough spot. That 300 hour guy may know all there is to know about starting the engines on his shiny RJ but I don't want to be around when things are going from bad to worse and hes sitting over there in the right seat wishing he'd worn his brown underwear.:D

PS Learning how to operate the airplane is why airlines send you to 6-8 weeks of training.

That was my mistake I meant to say right seat, but i spent alot of my instructional career in the left. Ok, here we go again. That poor cfi with several thousand hours might not be able to start the engine when he first sits down, but with about 2 minutes of instruction and a checklist, the master of the learning process will be able to start your shiny CRJ and your 300 hour PFT'er is still asking the captain how to fly an approach. No offense to the 300 hour guys but I know of a couple of times I scared myself at 300 hrs, and that was clipping along at 80 knots in a skyhawk. If those guys out there in this situation don't at least feel a little humbled by their lack of knowledge, then their just plain arogant/stupid.
I have spent the last 3000 hours instructing, BY CHOICE! Oh but you ask did you have enough multi to get a job? About 1300 of it is PIC turbine multi. So the answer is YES! I took this path because I enjoyed it and found it very benefitial....also had some dilusions that I might actually get to work for a better company with more flight time. That aside I DIDN"T pay for training (Except ratings at 141 school) and I actually started my private about 7 months AFTER 9/11. So thinking that instructing is going to take too much of your life is untrue. Maybe if these people put as much into looking for a good instructors job as they did trying to circumvent the airlines hiring process they too might find themselves a job that payed more than 16 a year to start. Instructing might require long hours of not getting paid while on the ground but HELLO what do you think your gonna be doing after you park that RJ?
Well before I manage to get my blood pressure up over this use less debate again. :rolleyes:

I figured the CFI thing was what you meant. I completely agree with you, good post.

Boy, I hope I get to be a pax on Ya'lls plane.......NOT!

So if Mesa airlines is operating so unsafely, why aren't people trotting out a horrendous safety record to support their case? They've been in business 24 years, surely that's long enough for the chickens to come home to roost, is it not?

I got put on the ERJ. Sim starts March 12.

Good luck to you...

-LA

Congrats! If you have any free time let me know(you guys have to work your asses off). There aint a lot to do out here but if you ever want to go get somthing to eat let me know. I recomend the Hooters in Tempe. Thats where they keep the A team. It'll be my treat. You have to save your money.

How is the vibe towards MAPD graduates at MESA? Do they give them a hard time? Also I'm guessing you have to be a F/O at least 2 years before thinking about moving to Captain right? What's the hour requirement to be a captain?