[quote=Mrsmith42e;361068]Stap Weining girlyman!

I am in the Air Force stuck in a cublicle. I cant even quit my job to go and follow my passion and fly due to my commitment to the Air Force. You can ALWAYS quit your job! I cant or I go to jail!

Plus, there are tons of opportunities in aviation. Just look for them![/quote]

Been staring at that lcd screen too long have ya? Lets see, going on 8000 hours, almost 3200 pic, 6000 turbine...legacy hasnt even called, have four letters of rec at DAL an two CAL...yep jobs are there...oh wait, I can always fly corporate...hmmm where to look; where to look?

I believe I have the insight on what to do, problem is I am looking and applied, and begged, but no such luck. We all know it takes luck as well. I am thankful to have a job but does that mean I have to love the conditions have been given or be discouraged by what has transpired in the recent past? When I applied and was hired by this airline, three contracts ago I was employed under certain work rules and salary that were alledgely protected by the contract and our faithful union. Surprise....S##t happens, I can accept that but only for so long. What Saab was saying I believe there comes a time when you begin to wonder if AFTER all the years of chasing the pot of gold was worth the QOL and financial expense not too mention marriages? One can only answer that after the fact unfortunately.

As for the Air Force, I too was there, and guess what, you can leave after your term as well which btw is defined when you reupped. So you have knowledge and can plan as well when the term is up. As for the cubicle position, well, I believe the AF allows for you to pick the career you wish when you enlisted if not cross train.

Looking back would I follow the same path, answer to that is no. Am I preparing for the future outside of avaition, yes. In the meantime, I enjoy the flying and co workers but disgusted with the industry and how all pilots and FA's are treated.

SAAB!
After reading your bashing of colgan for many months now! It puts a smile on my face to read how worn down your getting. Shoulda just stayed put at Colgan and ate crow like the ones before me and those many years after me! Folks this is what happens when somebody gets SJS!:D

no im not @ Mesa, never sat reserve, held a line from day 1, single and dont live with mommy, been doin it a year...lucky maybe, but did my research...you all knew what you were getting into...complain about how smart it was for you to do the airline thing not about the ones who like the job. I love flying with guys like you who just complain the whole time while i sit there with a smile on my face... no matter how hard u guys try, it gets under your skin that someone likes being up there.

Sometimes I just hate my job I also hate the fact that I have the bug and hope it will get better although i know it won't. The sad fact is that it can be changed overnight if we had a pair. The industry has no respect for pilots from the pax to management gate agents to rampers. What needs to be done is we need to take some time off just a day or two to remind the flying public management and congress who makes things happen. If you think a couple of md-80 flights made the news I would love to see Wolf Blitzer and Bill discuss have our unscheduled vacation on his talking points.

I was just discussing with my wife yesterday the possibility of leaving this profession for better pay and quality of life. One relatively easy career move would double my salary and allow me to be home for dinner every night.

I stay in for two reasons: 1) the time and money I've invested to be here, and 2) the prospect of opportunity after the dust settles from the current industry downturn. But with the goals of buying a house and starting a family in the not-so-distance future, a choice must be made...

Hang in there Saaberino! I know I can be a bit negative w/ my outlook re: the industry too. It sounds like you've reached an important crossroads here in your airline career that I think many of us are going through right along with you. That is to say, pilots are stubborn, they don't like to give up and they'll pursue their flying goals to no end because they're so goal oriented. We can only envision ourselves flying airplanes. That's what we were meant to do. Yet you have to be a realist as well, so you're considering your options outside of aviation, which quite a few more people are doing these days. This is healthy and means that while you're frustrated, you're well grounded and you are thinking ahead, as every good pilot should be predisposed to do anyway. Keep flying for now, just keep thinking about what you might possibly want to do outside of aviation should things worsen. Also, ask yourself how you could market yourself as a former airline pilot. I'm sure you've learned a whole lot while @ CoEx, you definitely know how to perform under pressure and you've got a sense of humor, so you are doing alright.

On a sidenote but sort of mirroring what you're talking about here, I knew a Mesa CRJ captain out of PHX several years ago who went back home to Australia to get his law degree. He was a commuter out of Santa Fe, NM. I remember talking to him before he left, he told me about his next door neighbor in Santa Fe. His neighbor was a municipal bus driver for the city of Santa Fe, turns out he made more money and had better benefits than this guy who was mostly flying the CRJ 900 out of PHX. This guy spent a portion of his career flying crop dusters in South/Central America in order to build up his flight time. He tried to climb the ladder as best he could and wound up being out-earned by a bus driver. I think that was probably the "moment of clarity" that convinced him to hang up his aviation hat. I realize most people will say "Well, that's Mesa for you!" But it is still a sad commentary on a job that is so under-appreciated by society.

Good luck, you already know it, but many of us are right there in the same boat w/ you.

The Duke

And why do you compare a blue collar job to a job where most of us invested 50K plus a 4 year degree?

If airline flying is anything, it's blue collar work. Especially at regionals. Regardless of how much money you spent on learning the trade or how many degrees you have.

Sitting ready reserve for 20 hours in the past two days has got me thinking a lot about cutting my losses now and pursuing other opportunities. It'll definitely be a tough decision, but I'm about to be in my third base in the past 5 months. I have some interviews with some other regionals out there which I will probably do, but within the next couple weeks I'll have to decide whether it'll be worth staying in for in the long run.

what's wrong with being the bum husband?

my wife's an engineer turned lawyer (still not sure how i managed this...) and we enjoy most of my job. i'm gone for 4 days (she gets to sleep and hog the bed), then i come home, play house-husband for a few days (cooking dinner and trying to clean to her standards), and my paycheck goes toward the fun stuff (new car, cruise, etc.)

yes, the stupid crap we put up with when we leave for the airport sucks, but it could be worse.

I would venture to guess if you are still sitting reserve, or ready reserve you have not been online too long.
I would hang out there and give it a few months. I am not sure where you work and I guess for the discussion it does not matter much, but when I started at TSA it took me a good little while to realize that I had not ****ed my life away. I still have days that I wish I did something else, but most days once I get to work I am just fine being there. For me, the last day in a sting of days is when I hate my job the most. But you suck it up and go in anyway, more days off will come again.

I suggest that you hang out on reserve and give a honest six months to form your decision. There are things that just take time to expreince when you are on reserve, and if you are new to the line there are alot things left to see and do. But for the days that I just could not stand my job and wanted to give it up I would express my concerns to my wife or a good friend. Just getting the chance to ***** about to someone else was often enough to get my over the hump.

I have found there is alot of value in venting your frustrations and complaints with either memebers of you family or your spouse. I call my dad and tell him how bad I feel, and to this day he still spends his time on the phone to bring back to reality. I am almost 29 years old, and complaining about that airlines to my dad has made us closer than we have ever been in the past growing up. So it has been an overall good experince for me..

Then the day you become a line holder will be your jumping off point on a whole new set of expreinces with an airline job. I think you find your life and mood improving.

With all of that, it might do you well to think about our predecessors. Think about some of the past rj drives that sat reserve for years, not months, weeks, sometimes never. In the past 5 to 10 years this was never the norm. I was always greatful for my short reserve time, but again never ment to throw that into the face of someone that sat reserve for years and years

With that all that said, there is nothing wrong for looking for other options. I still do it to this day. Always looking for that opputunity that might present itself and I leave the industry. Postive attitude and no expectations has left me not being too bitter.

Best of luck

Reeves

It shouldn't be...Name another profession where you invest so much money to get a "blue collar job"? It's exactly that type of comparison that makes this job so unappreciated. Any 4 year degree job pays more than a regional, but instead comparing ourself to lowest paying jobs in the country maybe we should stop for a second and think how much money and time it took to get this "dream job" and we still end up making 20K a year.
Some of you mentioned that your wifes make enough money to support the family.... I think that's pathetic! While there is nothing wrong with woman being the bread winner at home. What's pathetic is the fact we all got used to the idea that a nurse or bus driver makes more than pilots do. Pilots used to be the guys that had a wife at home and 3 kids in college without student loans. Nowadays half the pilots in regionals live with their parents. Why is that OK? Anytime some mentions the bad pay and qol they get blasted with negative comments like" we don't need you here" or "stop crying" Management could not give two @@@ about you and yet most of you here would rather criticize your fellow pilot.

SAAB, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't know you personally but from the previous post here and on the crack pipe I feel that you and I have a lot in common and share the same values. I am just about your age and started to get a little envious of my friends being home for the holidays and weekends. Seeing my long time girlfriend every day would also be a great bonus. But I don't ming working holidays, weekends, and being gone 4 days a week if I had something to show for it... I work my @@s off and then come home to find out that maybe on the next rip I should pack food because my savings account balance is getting low. Most my friends bought hoses and until recently I had to rent a crappy studio just to keep me going. I don't want my kids to be poor and without a father half the time. That's why I made a decision to quit and so far I have been more than happy with that move.
While I am not saying that this career is without a future, I will say that the future of the career has to do more with luck than skill. I have friend that's a minority and he got hired at CAL at the age of 24 and 1500 total time. At the same time I know plenty of people that have more 6000 tt and 3000 turbine PIC but not even a single interview. In addition todays best airline maybe tomorrows nightmare. You could be a 20 year captain making 200K a year but tomorrow you maybe just a new hire making less than 30k. No other job has such messed up pay.

Oh and SABB: We don't your kind around here!! ;) Go get a job at a bar because that the only alternative that a retired pilot has...

I'm going to add my take here and experience about the airlines in my year flying 121.....

I am currently flying for an airline and am not thrilled with it. What I have experienced is there are some good things and a lot of bad things with this job....with nothing inbetween. Great view and the speed is high on my list, but that is about it. Reduced rest, time spent away from home, lack of physical activity, and periods of just doing nothing is a killer for me.

I can't see myself doing this career forever. This job definitely ages you faster and staying healthy is a constant task to be had. Talking with guys who have done this job longer than myself brings more of the same opinions and experiences; Divorce, fatigue, boredom, burnout, and obesity are things I hear from senior people in this industry.

Don't get me wrong, I do love to fly....but flying an airliner is easy. I would say I am more of a manager and a button pusher. I watch the plane fly....that's about what this job turns out to be. I feel the ERJ that I fly requires almost no skill....I felt more challenged flying GA aircraft than I have flying a transport category jet. I also despise the 4 hour airport sits between legs....there is alot of hurry up and wait which feels unproductive.

I'm going to be pursuing my masters degree here shortly and take up flying as my hobby. While I am still very passionate about flying, I am not so much passionate about the airline career. I find instructing and sharing your love for aviation with someone else who has the same pasison is the most rewarding. I would love to get a job where I am at home and can instruct for nothing more than the love of it. I have a few freinds who have done that and they love it....and they get to go home every night.

But to each his own....someone has to do this job and I am also thankful for those that do and can tolerate the lifestyle. But for me, I like to ride in the back drinking an ice cold beer and fly my GA planes where I want and when I want for fun.

Good luck! We all need it in this business!

Bro, no offense but I would of left this industry some time ago if I would of stayed at Colgan. XJT is 10x better QOL (at least for me), and the sad thing is, for the flying you guys do at Colgan and the BS you put up with, you guys should be making double then what you are......

Its the crews I flew with at Colgan and here at Express that keep me from calling it quits.......

[quote=Rascal;361234]It shouldn't be...Name another profession where you invest so much money to get a "blue collar job"?
I can think of teachers, Military offericers, and most entry level engineering jobs. While its true that these jobs have potential for high levels of pay so does airline pilots. Not every pilot makes it to a six digit salary, nor does most of the other professions.,
I quess what I'm trying to say is that you have to pay your dues, and in most professions its 10 or more years not 1 or 2 as most of you seem to think. Just jumping to another profession doesent mean instant sucess.

I told you that this was a good thread!!!!

[QUOTE]It does'nt, however, any lateral moves, chances are you will move up in compensation and your QOL will not be affected, just think of what a 20yr airline guy's QOL would be like if he went from a 20yr guy to a 1st year, bottom of the list F/O.

Again a lot of "dues paying" going on in the airlines, for what though? A concessionary contract or for potential bankruptcies? Airline management does not care if their airline goes under, chances are they do better off financially if the airline does in fact fold.

My dream, as sad as it is, is to have EVERY AIRLINE PILOT who flies for a US 121 airline NOT TO GO TO WORK for a few days, I know it is illegal and would never happen, but could you imagine what kind of message that would send

While its true that if my company closed the doors tommorrow, and 3 of them have, I can usely get another job paying close to what i make now, but I still loose all senority vacation insurance. If the economony is bad I may not find a job in my profession and have to take a lower paying job till something better comes along.
I can also say, that no management in any industry gives a rats a$$ about any of the employees. thats not confined to the airline industry.

I wonder if people in other jobs have these same discussions. I can just hear it now: "Man, this accounting job stinks. Every day it's the same thing: spreadsheets, spreadsheeets, spreadsheets. 60 hours a week and all I do is work spreadsheets. The worst part about this accounting gig is that I am on salary. So I get paid the same amount even when I work all weekend. At least those airline pilots are smart enough to get paid extra when they work more hours. Them pilots are the smart ones."

This is my first post on APC. Can't wait to join in on the fun.

Yeah, but people in the office at least ***** about it and as for airlines every new hire Fo defends them. Just look some posts form Colgan pilots.

Yes!!! its very tiring. Though like you I really enjoy flying. I'm a day tripper myself. Everything else that surrounds it (Security, pay, threaten domicle closer, etc) gets old. However, the enjoyment of flying and the many days off outweigh the rest. So far.

It is NEVER to early for a jack and coke...

Or if you are tom burgundy, Scotch.

I live in Korea here in Seoul (U.S. Army). Kegogoi (Dog) tastes like beef they say but noone ever knows what it is until their friends tell them after a nice dinner at the korean resteraunt. hahaha
Come on over and try it out!

Is that Ron's brother?:confused:

Yeah, Days off are great, only issue I have is I can't do much with these days off cause Im usually broke :(.

Every job becomes a job.
 

Once the "I'm an airline pilot" wears off flying becomes a job just like any other job. If you are in the aviation business just for the dream of making a lot of money you should change direction. If you are in it for the dream of flying (doing what you love) then you should stay and make the best of it. Sure, you could go and get a nursing degree and have a high paying and very secure future but would you be happy? People in every line of work complain about their job...some more than others. I have a government job working 40 hours a week, 6:00 - 2:30, weekends off, over 5 weeks vacation, considering all pay and benefits about $70K, get to come home every day...and I still complain about my job. However, I still have the dream of being an airline pilot and part of me wants to give it all up (24 yrs) for a regional job. But with the price of oil climbing and all the recent bankruptcys I've decided to let the dream go. When I retire at 55 if I still have my health and the pilot hiring allows it then I'll go fly for a regional for 10 years and "live the dream!" If you need help to make a decision do what Ben Franklin did...draw a line down the middle of a page, put the positives on one side and the negatives on the other, and go with which side has the most.

Don't get me wrong not to bash the point of your thread. I'm dealing with the same BS as you once did at colgan. But to see you start a thread like this that WE ALL can relate too is kinda funny, When have been on your high horse for months about XJT. Momma always said never kick a man when he is feeling down. PM me and I'll buy you a beer in EWR!:cool:

You should just stick with it, Saab. All industries suck at the lower level. You have more dues paying to do before you get to the better money and choice workload. If you are 35 and are still truly unhappy, maybe then you are in the wrong field. Get good at living small in the meantime and be grateful to be flying for one of the better airlines and to be healthy and well-employed. Look for happiness in things other than money. The best things in life are free, and in due course of time you will have both.

-Cubdriver

How big is his apartment and how much is his rent?

about $2,700.00 a month in rent :), its about the size of a triple 7 flight deck haha.

I hear ya, but my gripe is with the industry, not so much Expressjet ;).

Ill take a case of Sam Adams Summer Ale, should be out by now ;).

I said A beer! Did you forget about my colgan pay. LOL:D

Here are my thoughts on this whole industry. Prior to this I was doing Satellite Engineering, and had 100k offers, but wanted to give this a shot, I love the office view and the flying.

I think some of the things that need to change is the fact that you are stuck in a company for better or worse and if you leave you start again. Also why should you be rewarded for only doing your job, can't think of any other industry consisting of highly educated individuals in which this behavior takes place. There are plenty of ways to distinguish effort without being a brown noser, coming to work and just doing your job is not enough. Anyone that argues this, hope you have experience in corporate America to back it up.

I understand that the unions are a necessary evil, but it shouldn't be used as a seniority number. The union should be there to protect QOL, safety and work conditions. Pilots should be able to go from one carrier to the next and be awarded a position partially based on their credentials. I think there should be at the very least yearly performance reviews besides sim/PC checks.

I know a lot of you will be quick to chime in and say that's how it was done and how ALPA came to be, please that was in the 30's, lot of problems everywhere in America during those times. Also flying the line is outdated, good material but behind the times, not a true reflection of the times.

Whoaa, man Now wonder why your broke. I'm looking at condos to buy right now and I found 2 bedroom for 105,000. Breaking it down with ultilities, condo fees, taxes, etc, I'd be spending at least 1000 dollars less per month then you and I'd own. Can't believe its that bad in jersey. I'm moving out into the rural areas, not so much in the city that helps but, still. Thats tough. good luck.

Security. Like the security of working for one of the big three auto companies in the 70s. All three still exist, but the UAW has given back much. Or the security of investing as Michael Milken taught us in the 80s. Or the security of working for a dot-com in the 90s. Or the security of being a doctor when the cost of medical malpractice insurance averaged 1/3 of his/her gross income. Or the security of working for "America's Most Innovative Company" aka Enron.

There is no such thing as security. Everything has risks.

And about finding another job and making the same amount right off: unless one is earning minimum wage, it doesn't happen.

wise crack alert!
 

This is the life we CHOSE! no one and I repeat no one forced us to do this job. so just buck up and do it or try selling real estate -yeah thats the ticket --- NOT !:eek:



There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots!

I don't know many people who would consider any of those jobs "blue collar." I've been an entry level engineer and made $50k. I was underpaid compared to my contemporaries on the coasts. I almost became a military officer and have many friends who are. New LTs make about $45k in equivalent civillian pay (gets complicated with BAH). Teachers tend to start out in the $35k range in most markets, but they also don't work the summers. The only relation we have to blue collar work is our unions and the fact that seniority rules all. We have made ourselves interchangable labor in most markets. If we were expected to do more than drive the bus (like sell the airline to our customers) then we might be considered more than bus drivers. How many of us take the time to talk to our customers? I'd be happy just to have little wings to hand out to kids.

I know at my company its actually frowned upon for the pilots to say anything more than "good morning" or "thank you for flying with us today" to our passengers. Anything that pilots say can be used against us or the company, by a passenger who is ****ed off or scared to fly. If passengers were to ask how old I am or how long i've been the flying for the company and I tell them, they would prolly freak out, since most want a 50 year old gray haired guy thats been flying the same plane for half his career, but this isn't the majors, its the regionals, but they don't understand that.

I thought about jumping in here with my $.02, but I think I'll just read some more-

its funny!

A few months at Colgan and a year at XJT. If you don't like it, I'd quit. After all your pontification on here, I figure you'd be the complete opposite of wanting to quit.