Pilot realizations
 

In order...

The lifestyle imbalances are the first thing to hit pilot radar that something isn't right in the happy town of an airline career. You will watch as your friends and college buddies begin to rapidly leave you behind in regards of enjoying toys, buying homes and having a real life.

The next realization to hit is: It is little benefit to having a string weekdays off when everyone else is working. Your friends will be on the boat and having a good time on Saturday while you are sitting in a terminal someplace.

The third thing a pilot discovers is that even as a regional captain they really do not make as much as the investment and sacrifices would demand. Other simple pedestrian sounding professions offer a better overall life and compensation. These jobs include; plumber, cop, UPS delivery man and many others.

A fourth one is when they realize that even with a well hung resume most will not make it to a major. The fact is that there isn't room for everyone. Things like industry cycles, airline shutdowns, mergers, upgrade times and many other factors that determine career success are totally out of your control. The odds are something will come along and knock you down and there will be nothing you can do about it.

And the last realization that pilots make. The majors are not all that great anymore anyway. Why make all the sacrifices, take all the risk and huge investment in time and money, move away from where all your friends and family are, and face a crumbling future to hopefully make a bit more than a plumber anyway?

SkyHigh

for some reason.. everytime i come scout this forum.. i leave all depressed. this sh*t is gay

LMAO. But dude you will be living the DREAM, flying a JET!!!!!!!

Its cool for a few months. Then you get fed up, when you realize how screwed up corporate america is.

You'll make more as a CFI AND be home EVERY night!

Guys,
As my user name would imply, I have already made the jump. Let me just say that medicine (in my case nursing) offers tremendous job satisfaction, stable employment, and a new grad Associate Degree nurse makes Regional captain pay. Plus, if you tell your wife you are "going to have a few drinks with some people from work" what that really means is "Honey, I am going to go drinking with 20 hot chicks half my age."

Lets look at those realizations one at a time....

The lifestyle imbalances .... college buddies begin to rapidly leave you behind in regards of enjoying toys, buying homes and having a real life

Keeping up with the Joneses. It must be sad to value one's life by one's toys. If I understood Saab's posts so far, $40,000 isn't enough to live on (at least not a "real" life) even when he doesn't pay rent... jeez. And many of the Joneses are the ones who were "victims of predatory lenders". Yeah, they bought too much house for too much money, but it isn't THEIR fault. Don't worry, the government will bail you out.




The next realization to hit is: ....Your friends will be on the boat and having a good time on Saturday while you are sitting in a terminal someplace.

Yeah, and I bet cops and firefighters just love working weekends and every holiday. Maybe you never noticed, PEOPLE FLY ON WEEKENDS! Some one must fly them.... oh, maybe everybody else would work and let you have weekends off. (By the way, boxes don't fly on weekends, but you wouldn't get to fly a shinny new jet for a long time)





The third thing ... as a regional captain they really do not make as much as the investment and sacrifices would demand. Other ... professions offer a better... life and compensation. ... plumber, cop, UPS delivery man and many others.

If you didn't know what the cost/return was for pilots, you didn't do your homework. Maybe you just heard about pilots making six figures and only working 10 days a month... or maybe you just ignored the publicly posted pay scales (thank you APC!) and had stars in your eyes. By the way, many plumbers and cops work weekends (see #2 above). Dealing with ****** filled pipes or criminals doesn't sound like a better QOL to me: if it does to you, go for it.




And the last realization ... The majors are not all that great anymore anyway. Why make all the sacrifices, ... to hopefully make a bit more than a plumber anyway?

You are right. The majors aren't what they were.... and neither is about any other traditionally good industry. Somewhere between the babyboomers and generation y, the hope that "my kids will have it better than I did" began to fade. Oh, and in the good ol' days, pilots worked weekends.

Live the dream! :) Do y'all remember where that line came from?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=tCF9G6ORYyc&feature=related

And we all know what heppend to DMC. :rolleyes:

LOL. A friend in high school had one of those.

LOL:D:D

Its all relative my man. Dont take the stuff on here so personally.

The good old days only existed for the very very senior...hell I know several retired TWA guys who sat "side saddle".... for you young guys that means "on the panel".... oh...sorry... FLIGHT engineer for more than 15 years before upgrading to the right seat and who barely upgraded to left before retirement..... and it wasnt just TWA.

This business is tough. Its more of a lifestyle than a career. If you dont like the lifestyle.... the job will never make you happy. People were furloughed in this business in every decade imaginable... even in the "good old days".....

NO.. its not the business of 10 years ago.. or 30 years ago.... its a rapidly changing monster that probably cant be tamed... and NO I dont think mergers and culling will make it better..... That sort of thing has been going on for decades as well... and every time the industry contracts a bit... a bunch of new airlines open up shop. Pick well .... life is grand... if your pick sucks... lifes a biatch. But really...isnt it that way in life... for everyone......

I dont have the answers.... hell If I had picked the right "door" 16 years ago Id be on easy street... but I didnt ... but I sure as hell cant change that decision... so now I play the hand dealt me and work for change.

Thats a nice box you've thrown everyone into. :rolleyes:

Post less, pick-up opentime

I can only fly 100hrs in a Month :)

Thats why Day trips are so great, basically 8 hrs of flying every day.

My point is, we all should make every effort we can to make sure the industry doesnt remain as sad as it is, get involved and don't have the attitude, "if you don't like it quit" it should be, "this industry is a joke, lets work together come contract time and make sure management does not take advantage of us"

That's fine for 135/19 seat market.

Only 83/month for the the big tin domestic players.

Why not try part 91 time?

Saab: that is all fine and dandy, and I agree 200% with what you propose. However, where and how do we start? The first hurtle is unifying the pilots, it seems to me that, no matter what you do, someone will always be there to undermine your efforts - to push their own agenda. The next hurtle is actually finding the wherewithal to take effective action. For instance, look at how much trouble Pinnacle pilots are having in the renegotiation of their contract. How long has it been? A few years and running? It seems nearly impossible for pilots to negotiate a contract that duly compensates us for our expertise. Really the only effective method of bringing management to terms, that I can think of anyway, is a strike. But again, it seems impossible to actually bring a pilot group to such action; considering again pilot-unity, and now also the many legal implications.

So again, where and how do we start?

Sometimes just speaking an idea outloud with no apperant plan of action, will in time come to some meaningful conclusion.

I think this is been on the minds of many that have not said anything. Just give it some more time and let the idea fester, someone will come up with a bad/good idea, and that will be the start of a great idea.

I think just got to give it some time to think


I dont have the answers

Reeves

I moved furniture for over 12 years. At the end of my last year driving the check I wrote to the IRS was 10,000 more than a regional FO will make. I gave up the six figure income for the shot at flying for a living. Money in not everything when it comes to work. Job satisfaction is. If you are not happy, leave. It is that simple. I did and could not be happier.

So I have one question... when will you stop complaining? You used to work for an airline that wasn't up to the regional average... ok so you complained. Now you work for "one of the better regionals". You have spent a year there and you already are complaining some more.

So SAAB I have one question for you.... will you ever stop complaining?

I think I know that the answer will be no. You might as well be a captain for FedEX, you would be complaining about night flying. No matter how good your situation is you will complain. When all someone does is complain you begin to understand that this person is simply someone who would rather cry about thier misfortunes than do the necissary work to make ther own situation better.

Good on you SAAB. Thank you for reminding all of us that we aren't millionaires, we don't all make six figure incomes, and having decent jobs that provide heath care for our famililes and an above average income is somehow not good enough.

Like I said earlier... we should all make more money and have better work rules, but if you didn't know this coming in, espicially only 3 years ago that is nobody's fault but your own.

Very few know how crappy things are coming in. Granted, you can do a lot of research online and get copy's of contracts. But that is something "new".

It really ticks me off when everyone says "you knew this coming in". BULL! They drink the KOOL AID management feeds them because there is no one to tell them any different. The only way they LEARN is by experiencing it! Don't tell me you knew how everything was going to be when you went to your first airline.

Of course this job is better than some flight instructing/freight/ect gigs, but that doesn't mean it isn't crappy.

I think the people who complain are the ones who've worked for good companies in the past and got spoiled. The ones who don't complain are the ones who don't know any better and are use to being treated like crap.

If I know what I know now. I would NEVER have gotten into aviation.

Oh well...Hind sight.

That has been going through my head for quite some time now... Of course, I'm just being a cry baby.... :rolleyes:

It does need to get better. We WILL take this industry back! All it takes is a stand and for us to STOP accepting low paying jobs. That means fill out the application, go to the interview, pass it, and then find out what starting pay is and tell them why you're leaving.

Is it possible for pilots to boycott a hiring pool successfully? Man I wish the word would just get out fast enough for it to be effective... there always seems to be someone like ME who will take the job... and then regret it.

Good post!!!

I'll stop complaining when conditions ands pay improve, unlike you I am not settling. You talk about working for an airline and how it gives you health insurance, well I hope you never get hired at CAL, because if you do I wish you a lot of luck those 1st six months.........

Sad that you are ok with the current state of the industry, I however am not.

I am not here to just complain either, I am the Newark F/O Rep, so I am doing a small part to help the lives of pilots I work with..........

Its not too late... if you are only 3 years in you can easily get out, less pilots = better pricing power for me.

re-read it, Ebl14 it needs to sink in

It looks like you have done a good job improving the situation so far... oh wait you just quit and went to a different carrier. Don't sit here and act like you are trying to make things better for all of us when you would happily take more for yourself and leave everyone else behind.

Bottom line... you can whine and complain all you want, but management knows that you will always do whats best for #1

yeah, I left Colgan becuase I am not a slave, and volunteering my time with the Union is so selfish, all about me, get a clue, you ignorance is really showing now, good job you just lost all creditability.

If I was looking for credibility I wouldn't be asking a frequent cry baby from some pilot forum.

My point, so people will complain no matter what their situation is. I'll bet SAAB would still be complaining if he was Bill Gates.

Like I said earlier well all should be working for better pay and work rules. Whining about it to other pilots on APC is not the way to change anything.

Go ahead and continue the personal attacks, it will help your career in the union.

I could lock the thread, give an infraction, give a warning, or just express to ya'll that things aren't going well...

The above post is out of line. Tone it down or don't post. We expect a certain level of respect at this site. If you can't make your point in a more professional way, it's best to just keep quiet.

I'm right there with you. I've been through one furlough, and I'm at my second 121 airline, and I'm looking back and regretting ever setting foot in the cockpit of a plane. To be honest, I don't mind the job so much, but I'm tired of the lifestyle we put up with for the pay. It's out of whack. I'm tired of living out of hotels. Out of all my friends who graduated college when I did, 10 years ago, I'm am making the least amount of money. I'm also home the least amount of hours per month. I'm sitting asking myself what I got myself into. My problem is I'm getting too old to back out.

[quote=SAABaroowski;361280]I second this notion

to sum it all up...
 

i think that my signature says it all

I hear, and feel for you, despite what Ebl14 calls whining, its a concern I have and I see more and more guys expressing up in the flight deck.

Laid off
 

If anyone here gets laid off and has been considering a career change it can be a blessing in disguise. The government is eager to help and offers many programs to displaced workers. Along with unemployment income You can also get college and other training paid for. They really roll out the red carpet for a displaced worker. If you were to quit however then that is a different story. I took full advantage of everything the government had to offer when I was laid off. It was a big help.

SkyHigh

We all took the job for low pay, and lousy conditions. It will not get better until low time pilots stop taking these jobs. That just ain't gonna happen. I do see now some people avoiding the 121 regionals and sticking with charter or corporate jobs because the money and conditions are better (different). No matter what though, its called work. And work is hard and tiring. No matter where you work. If you own the company, it's even harder. In order to be happy, you have to enjoy your work. Its easier to enjoy work when you make $250K a year and work 10 days a month, but those days are gone forever. Enjoy your job, be happy. Money will come eventually.

Money will come
 

Are you sure about that? Seems to me that it is that same head in the sand approach that got us all into this situation.

Skyhigh

decent pay may end up coming, but after the years and years of poverty type wages, its pretty much a washout....... God im turning quiet cynical. On a positive note, I am going up again in a 172 next week, Grass roots flying is where its at ;). I am even going to ask if they need some help around there. I was so eager to leave Instructing and the small FBO scene I never had time to enjoy it.

enjoy it while you can
 

I have wondered if small FBOs and part 61 training will be around much longer. I hope they are, but I don't know.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...727702,00.html

International Departures


For captain Brian Murray, the memory of the way pilots and crew were treated during the airline bankruptcies of the 1980s still stings. "Planes were parked. Crews were out and had to find their own way home," says the former Piedmont Airlines pilot. "We were bringing people home in the cockpit and in the back of the cabin." After 23 years of flying mainline American carriers, Murray, 54, says he became "tired of watching senior management march through the airline and leave with huge golden parachutes."


http://stats.sphere.com/widgets/sphe...id=time_inline


So in July 2004 he jumped too, from U.S. Airways to Dubai-based Emirates. His new company provides him with a freshly pressed uniform and a chauffeur-driven car to each flight. Murray has twice the vacation time (42 days), guaranteed annual raises and a benefits package that has lured more than 100 U.S. pilots to Emirates over the past four years. One-third of the 23 former U.S. Airways pilots at Emirates had the option to return when the airline recalled them from furlough after the cuts in 2004. Only one did. "It's just not worth it," Murray says. "Employees have been beaten down to the lowest common denominator, where the salary, benefits and career path are so miserable--so uncertain." And maybe it's also because the guys who once ruled the U.S. skies now have a different status at the legacy carriers--employee.
That sentiment--a common one among the more than 10,000 U.S. airline pilots put on furlough between late 2001 and 2006--has led to what many airline experts call a major shortage of pilots willing to work for U.S. carriers. Bankruptcies, pay cuts, frozen pensions, eroded job security and increases in monthly flight hours have pushed some pilots out of the industry. Others have simply picked up and followed the best jobs overseas. Emirates, for example, expects to hire 540 pilots this year. Half the applicants are Americans, compared with just 7% of its current pilots. The result is a massive shift of talent and experience from U.S. carriers into the international market.


Pilots flying for airlines in foreign markets say they are treated like upper-level managers, with something they feel they no longer get in the U.S.: respect. China and India are signing up pilots with two-to-five-year contracts and giving them the chance to move around the world without having to start at the bottom and advance--something stifled by the seniority system in the U.S. "It's an amazing opportunity," says Murray.
And the word is quickly getting out to pilots in training. An aviation major and recent graduate of Georgia State University, Adnan Pochi, 21, has been flying since age 15 and has already racked up 300 flying hours. Although he will probably start off at a U.S. regional carrier, Pochi is attracted to the energy at airlines overseas. He hopes someday to go to India to work for Kingfisher Airlines. "They're hiring like crazy," says Pochi. "It's a big market."
The U.S. is still the world's pilot training ground, but the pool of young talent is drying up. The number of military pilots, once a reliable source of commercial recruits, has been declining. Flight instructors, whom the industry needs to keep the pipeline of new pilots flowing, are hopping abroad rather than spending years racking up hours to qualify for bottom-rung U.S. pilot posts. And only about 20% of furloughed pilots are coming back to work, compared with 80% to 90% historically, says Jerry Glass, a Washington-based consultant and president of F&H Solutions Group.


So who will fill the estimated 12,000 new airline pilot jobs created this year in the U.S.? Major airlines can still skim off the top to fill plum jobs with eager regional pilots, but then those regional positions will need to be filled. That is forcing some smaller carriers, such as Pinnacle Airlines and Comair, to reduce flight-hour requirements for experienced pilots or offer training-completion bonuses to new flight-school graduates.
Captain John Prater, president of the Air Lines Pilots Association, says a shortage of qualified pilots is severely affecting some regionals' ability to fly, tempting them to push pilots to fly beyond Federal Aviation Administration maximum flight times. Chronic pilot fatigue jeopardizes safety--and the pipeline's flow. "You destroy the benefit and the value of being an airline pilot, and people will take their skills elsewhere," he says. And they are.

great read!

I don't think there will be any qualified pilot shortage in the US for a very long time. Only pilot shortage that I am aware is overseas. This is why foreign airlines treat their pilots so much better.

This skyrocketing oil price is killing the airline industry. Let's hope the airline industry settles down to a steady growth period for a change from 2008 onward. I know this is a wishful thinking, but hey, it could happen. Otherwise we are all in for a roller coaster ride, unless you get off first.

I understand oil is traded in the Dollar, wish is low, however when it was higher how were the European airlines handling this? It seems as though their industry has never gotten as bad as bad as ours is here, due to fuel. I am asking cause I have no idea, anyone have any insight?

I was referring to both European and Asian airlines. For one thing, European and Asian airlines do not have CEOs that receives mega million dollar bonuses and salaries when the airline is not performing well. Even during good times, their CEOs and top executives' salaries are reasonbale as compared to those of US airlines CEOs and executives. When I say reasonable, they are well below the million dollar mark. NWA CEO received 47 million dollar bonus after NWA came out of bankruptcy when NWA pilots took a 40% paycut. Also, the fuel price charged at the pump is highly regulated, and for that matter so is the oil industry in those nations.