3000 Hour CFI
 

I call this the 3000-Hour-CFI syndrome. It hurts me to see these guys working for peanuts accumulating worthless single engine time. It happens all the time. Not enough multi engine time, and barely enough money to survive let alone rent a multi engine plane. It typically happens at small shoddy FBOs that don't have any multi engine planes for instruction.

Very sad.

I pushed a friend of mine who had a ton of total time to get that elusive 100 hour multi time and apply to the regionals. He did, got hired, and then quit saying he couldn't live in a strange place away from home and the money was less than what he made being a CFI. So he went back to being a CFI.

I guess you have to know what you want and you have to have a plan and you have to pursue your plan at all costs. Most people don't though. It's a combination of inertia, apathy and resignation. Sad indeed.

This industry is hard and the times are harder still. But I don't get the CFI for life guy, or the FO at Eagle for life guy. There are better alternatives. Maybe it is worth pausing for a moment and reflecting on what the options are. What is the best route to the Majors?

Military.
Or whatever regional/commuer provides the fastest route to turbine PIC. Glass cockpit turbojet time really helps.

Corporate/Fractional could be a good alternative to the majors, but regional time is still probably the quickest path.

I've heard of the same story many times over the past couple of years. Its real tough right now indeed. Things are so tough that it makes me wonder if it will ever really return to the industry it once was.

Sometimes
 

Sometimes staying put pays off. I have a friend who has been at the same flight school for 15 years now. When he got hired all they had was a few 152's and a 182, now they have 7 Learjets and 2 challengers. The company stopped flight instruction 8 years ago. I called him an idiot for staying.

I have another friend who was a Cherokee 6 pilot in AK for 7 years. No twin time at all. He got hired at Alaska airlines over many others since HR liked his stability as an employee. Go figure....

SkyHigh

Go Back ??
 

It will never go back to what it was. Of course some of it wasn't that great. Back in the 80's and 90's there were few regionals and it took around 4000 hours to get hired by one, and they rarely hired. Now anyone with a few hundred hours can get hired but the pay is low and the job bites. My guess is that in a few years even the majors will be like that.

SkyHigh

Life is what you make of it...Some people make lemonaide and other throw away the lemons...It all depends on the person.

I have two rules - never second guess, and things always work for the best.

I hope I don't sound too happy....Its just that I can't help but find the silver lining in things...

-LA

have two rules - never second guess, and things always work for the best.

I like that, the only thing you can do is work hard and hope things turn out for the best!

Well said!

I dont see anythng wrong with waneing to be a career CFI. I like teaching and I love flying. Whats wrong with combing the two. If I decide not to become an airline pilot, I would love to teach aviation in a college or university setting like Purdue or ASU or a community college. You dont make much money. But I am fine living with $50K a year. It al depends on your preerence.

$50K wow man you must have some serious students or something. I worked for one of the biggest flight schools in the nation (we flew almost 65,000 hours last year) and I was a Turbine instructor in a King Air Flew about 150 hours a month and only turned 40K last year. However I do know someone that has been instructing his whole life and actually holds the world record for time in pistons I hear (He has about 34,000 hours in them), and every day he comes in smiling like he just hit the powerball so yes your right it might be for some people. Yet I know its not for me :D

40k and home every night, or 20k and home for five or six nights in a month? For some people the jet isn't worth the cost. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing. Money doesn't buy happiness and if you can make ends meet, and be happy doing it why upset the waters?

Well, you can make $50K as a CFI (do a little 141 management for example). But the problem with being a CFI and making any kind of money at all is liaibility...do it enough and eventually one of your fromer students will make a smoking hole and the family will sue...and I can guarantee you that the lawyers WILL find an inconsistency in the logbooks somewhere.

BTW, the worst possible thing you can do is give someone an IPC (unless they are a pro pilot)...you basically just gave an instrument checkride, and there's no DPE to buffer you from some of the liaibility. And private pilot IFR is not statistally safe by any measure...

You need a HUGE insurance policy (if you can get one) and if you have any assets, they had better be in a trust.

A good question was asked earlier. Whats better? Flying C-172's/182'sflying PIC for a police dept making $38K or flying CRJ's as SIC making $20K?

c172/182s for Police Department.

172 flight instructing, and making my own hours is still better than the same 20k at a regional on a 14 hour duty day for 6 hours flying.

$20k is first year CRJ pay, next year almost twice that (about 50% in pay rate plus line holding, etc), upgrade in 3-5 years and see another 50% bump in pay.

Flying for a police department probably adds nice health and retirement bennies, plus you're home everynight.

I enjoy flying for work, I chose the CRJ thing but the police thing could be nice, too. Whatever satisfies. Plus, I know a regional capt and a police pilot who both are also DPE's and charge over $300/check ride cash with no expenses. Nice part time job.

and the $50k CFI job is rare but possible as a university adjunct professor teaching mostly classes with some flying. Also, nice health and retirement with that.

You spend more waking hours at work than you do with the people (pets, hobbies, etc.) that you love. Enjoy your work.

What's not to get? Are you saying guys like Bill Kirshner and Rob Mishado (sorry if I butchered their names) are loosers??? I'm willing to bet that Kirshner has more knowledge/experience about aviation in his pinkey than you have all together. I recon he makes a pretty good living at it as well.
So you work as an FO at a regional, upgrade to CPT, then what... maybe go Brown, Purple or have a crack at flying Shamu. Along with all the other regional pilots trying to do so. And when you get there... you are doing the same thing you did at the regional, just making more money. Maybe. My brother at NWA as a senior FO on the Airbus is not making much more than a senior captain at my regional.
I've been flying for over 20 years, as a military instructor pilot, CFI/II MEI, a 135 freight dog hauling rubber checks around in a twin, as a turbo trash FO/CPT, and now as an RJ CPT. I'm actually thinking about giving up the regional airline gig and going back to being a CFI. Yeah, the pay is not as good, but after spending over a year away from my wife and kids thanks to a government sponsored trip to the desert where I got to fly in "unusual" conditions I'm more concerned about making it to my kids' soccer games than the remote chance of grabbing that brass ring at SWA.
Is it worth pausing for a moment and reflecting on the options? You bet. I did that every day for a year lying in my bunk after long missions, looking at pictures of my wife and kids and hoping I would get to see them and hold them again. Hope you don't have to do the same before you reflect on the options in your life. For me, I'll give it up for that extra lap chasing my wife around the house.

To really make it as a career CFI and/or DPE you need a lot of energy. You're busting ass all the time.

I'm lazy, I like 15 days off a month and not having to hustle every single buck I make.

If you enjoy instructing and have a manic personality, then it might be for you. Maybe you can do some corporate/135 on the side.

But remember the liaibility...it takes a LONG time at $50K/year to pay off a $5,000,000 lawsuit.

I know it has been a concern lately, but has anyone heard of a CFI actually being sued for signing some's log book? I know they have testified at NTSB hearings (as they should), but have not yet heard of a lawsuit against a CFI for signing a logbook. Can some one site an actual case?
Also, helps to have liability insurance.

CFIs being sued?!?! This is just ridiculous. Does everyone in this country want something for nothing? Is ANYONE held accountable for THEIR OWN actions?

So if I get into a car accident, can I or my family sue the driving instructor I had back when I was 15 years old? If my daughter has bad grades or doesn't do well on her SATs (when that happens in many years), can I sue the school district that she went to?

Where is accountability in this country anymore? Truly pathetic!

And to think that I've been thinking about getting back into instructing.......NOPE!

Amen bears! Its completely ludicrous. Maybe I should go boil some water and pour it on myself and then sue Maytag for making the stove!

I hope you guys are kidding and are not actually that ignorant. I agree it is totatally ludicrous from the standpoint of fairness and reasonableness, but plaintiff's attornys are interested in only ONE thing and it's NOT fairness. Juries don't know sh*t about aviation, so they can be easily led astray. After all, every juror DOES know that all pilots are reckless thrill-seekers who endanger themselves and the public on a daily basis...

I'm not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice, just throwing out my thoughts here: If you're a starving CFI just starting out, don't worry about it. You'll get named in the lawsuit, have a $5 million verdict entered against you, but all you have to do is declare bankruptcy and get on with your life. They have to leave you with basic necesseties, so you get to keep your 1987 Honda civic and your TV set. It's older, more established folks who have houses and other assets who need to be VERY careful...

http://www.genebenson.com/Articles/liability_part_3.htm

http://www.geocities.com/cfidarren/r-cfiliability.htm

This article is interesting to me, because MY first solo cross-country could have ended in exactly the same manner due to unexpected reduced vis:
http://www.avweb.com/newswire/10_02a.../186416-1.html

What I meant by ludicrous was that it is completely idiotic that it is legal and acceptable to crash your airplane and then have you or your family turn around and sue the CFI that gave you a BFR 10 years ago. Im a CFI myself and I know the liability exists. If I signed a guy off for a BFR and then he didnt fly again until the last day before his currency runs out and then he decides to take his buddy up and they end up lawn-darting it into some old ladies house who then has a heart attack and dies, I am going to be very irritated if a lawyer comes knocking on my door. As far as I am concerned when I signed his BFR he was current and safe (or else I wouldn't have signed it!) What he does in the intervening 2 years before his next one is due is his business and he is responsible for his actions. Now wether or not that holds up in a court of law...:rolleyes:

im sure we all remember the multi million dollar award to the dumb skank who spilled FRESH (obviously hot) COFFEE ON HER LAP as she left the mcdonalds drive thru and proceeded to get in a wreck.

gg america

Of the links you list, only one has a specific case of an actual lawsuit, and that entails a student pilot on a solo cross country. In that case, yes, you had better be VERY careful. Most flight schools and CFIs that I know have high weather minimums for solo cross country flights as the PIC is a "student" pilot, not a private pilot and the CFI therefore carries more responsibility.
Any specific examples of a CFI being held to task for a BFR or ICC sign off, or some other sign off for other than a student pilot? Again, I'm not looking for "I heard from a friend..." or "I read it might happen...", I'm looking for specific examples. Not to say you might not be the first, but this goes back to CFIs charging reasonable rates so they can pay for liability insurance.

The 141 CP (and former DPE) at the last flight school I worked had three lawsuits pending, one of which had dragged out over 7 years . That was why he gave up DPE. One lawsuit was IMC fatality related ($$$). Another involved a aircraft destroyed on landing, the insurance company paid out, then went after the CFI and DPE. Not sure what the third one was about. OK, this was in California, so your risk is probably lower in say Tennessee

But the point I'm making is if you have assets, make sure you are protected! And IPC's are the riskiest endorsement to give, because you just turned somebody loose in the most hazardous aspect of private GA.

If you have any doubts, and if this is more than an academic question (ie you really have something to lose) talk to your local DPE. Those guys know all about it...

Do you have the cases? Again, I'm looking for more than "I heard...", but specific case law.

Sorry, but I'm sure the guy doesn't want his name posted here, he's still working in the industry. I'm also sure he wasn't lying to my face about any of it. There's probably plenty of info on google, or if you really need to know call an aviation law firm...

I tried the Google when this subject first came up. I came up with articles on "What might happen", but no case law- which is normally public record.
I am again reminded of a NTSB hearing i attended. An instructor commented to the NTSB that he probably should not have signed off a captain, and would not have except that he thought the captain would fly on the line with an instructor first (this was the days when an air carrier could be 135/121 and 135 IOE rules are/were... vague). The captain did not fly with an instructor first, and flew into a ridge line when a role reversal took place in the cockpit (FO started to take control). Make a long story short, this is NOT something you want to say at an NTSB hearing. This instructor was lucky the widow of the captain was old school and did not sue him and FSI.

Reviving this thread as a reminder of where we were as an industry and where we are now. Keep your head up guys and gals. Things will get better. Hoping no one needs to be a CFI for 3000 hour because of covid though lol

if that happens i can almost guarantee probably 75% of the CFIs right now would leave the industry. Before I got laid off by a very large florida based flight school, which (before covid) CFIs were logging 100+ hours a month and able to pay bills. In march after covid started, I was only flying about 20-25 hours a month. I was having to pull money out of my savings account just to pay rent and gas. No way this would be sustainable long term for most people

yup same here. I’m going to have to make a decision whether to keep instructing full time or find some other line of work. It’ll probably be the beginning of next summer give or take. Basically depends on whether or not the regional that I’m in a new hire pool contacts me with any positive info.

I know i am not the only CFI who has these same feelings. Many of my friends share similar viewpoints as me on this.

I guess the only positive thing with this situation with COVID is that pilot training pipeline is going to be decimated. My friends and I have seen a rapid decrease in the amount of new students. This means if this pilot shortage ever comes to fruition, it may be 10x worse than before all this crap started happening. Probably wishful thinking but it is what it is I guess...

This rollercoaster ride seems to happen every ten years and will happen again in another ten. Keep the faith it’ll turn around, maybe not the same landscape we’ve known for the last few years but it will come back it’ll just be different. I graduated college in 2009 with furloughed folks everywhere, not a great economy, and a ton of student loans. Two years later almost to the day I was sitting right seat in a regional... it ebbs and flows just try to remain positive.

Plenty of people did that in the 00s and came back when things got better in the mid 10s. It would be the smart thing to do once you reach 1500 - 2000 hours.

Yes, I helped a couple old buddies of come back to aviation from white-collar. As regional FO's.

Those of us who stuck it out in 00's are mostly legacy CA's. At least before the covid-induced downgrades.

95% of the pilots I know from the 00's are not legacy captains.

I'm talking about people who started around 2000, give or take a few years, and stuck it out in 00's. Several have been downgraded this year.

Sounds like you two run in different circles maybe.

the majority of guys I know from the 00’ area are at legacies, majority of them could hold captain but choose not to yet. Well at least prior to COVID

The amount of flight training at my small airport has gone up dramatically due to COVID. Most of the people have other careers and are just learning to fly for fun. They can’t travel, go to bars, movies, etc.. Learning to fly is a way to get out of the house and to learn a new skill. A couple airline guys that took leave are now doing it full time. A few others are doing as much as they want part time.

I’ll hit 1500 next month, hopefully get my ATP in spring, and will hope things recover around the time my daughter can drive. My wife gets her vaccine on Monday since she works at the hospital, so things should start moving soon once that gets widespread. I predict a repeat of the 1918 flu turning into the roaring 20’s.