Comair
 

Just like to know what some pilots think about working for Comair. Do you like it? good flying? It looks like one of the better regionals. Just like to know what some comair pilots think of it.

Historically a good company with industry leading pay and benefits...

However, they are now in bankruptcy, downsizing by 20% or more, and will end up giving back a lot of pay and benefits. So it's doubtful you could get a job right now, and who knows what you'de end up with if you did.

Comair is a good example of pilots pricing themselves out of a job. The airline was doing so well for several years and pilots and FAs and mechs wanted their piece of the pie but when the sh*t hit the fan with fuel prices and that computer fiasco a few years back, their cost structure was unsustainable. Just my views as an outside observer.

Freezing is RIGHT on!! Good luck to all of them! But being the unwanted red-headed stepchicl of DAL hasn't done them any favors.

My $.02

Baja.

The Real Problem with Comair
 

Listen up folks...here is the straight scoop from a Comair pilot. Management is doing what they will always do--coerce the pilot group into working for as little as they can possibly get away with paying. No surprise there.

The real issue is not that the Comair pilot group is overpaid...they aren't. When I began working here just over two years ago, the most senior 70-seat Captain (with 18 years of service) here was earning less than a 2nd year FO at Delta. You can't say that we are overpaid.

Comair pilots went on strike for 89 days in 2001 to raise the salary bar to a liveable wage. These pilots were tired of making $15,000 a year and they stood up for their right to be paid closer to what they are worth. For various reasons (9-11, ALPA's failure to unite the regional pilot groups, or whatever) the rest of the industry failed to follow Comair's lead.

When other pilot groups are content to earn $25,000 per year or less, the Major carriers who are paying our salaries are more than willing to farm-out as much flying as possible to the lowest bidders. This is not just a Delta-Comair problem...this is going on with Northwest and their regionals as well as Continental and COEX.

This "race to the bottom" to see who can fly for the lowest wages in the industry is a destructive and counter-productive practice that is only going to do irreparable harm to every regional in the business.

I fault ALPA for not establishing a "minimum wage" that is the lowest amount that any pilot group will accept for flying. By not having this minimum in place, the managers in the industry are able to play one regional against the other and lower the wages for everybody.

ALPA is finally getting a clue now though. They have realized that their precious mainline salaries are going to be under attack (AGAIN) because the disparity between the regional's pay and the major's pay is inducing management to lower mainline pay in order to "close the gap".

Ok, I've been rambling. I admit it. But anybody reading this needs to understand that pilot salaries won't go back up until pilots band together and face their respective managers with one unified voice. All of you ALPA leaders need to recognize that your failure to support the regional pilots in their quest for liveable wages has done more to undermine your own mainline interests and salaries than anything else.

I love my job, but I can't stand the fact that I could make twice as much money tomorrow if I took my 4-year degree to Wendy's or Home Depot.

SnowMan
You are definately right about that. I agree that more than anything we are going to have to work together to take our salaries up at the same time. I have to admit that I haven't really thought about a minimum wage but it sounds like a great idea.
As I always say though, the people of the U.S. are not going to stop flying. We might lose some passengers if tickets are increased but I think this is what mngmt needs to do to make the airline profitable and to satisfy the pilots at the same time.
Another place that damage is taking its tole is from the fractionals. Many people have realized that if they own a business they can move there people more effeciently with an airplane that flies on their schedule. I really don't know how the airlines can combat this situation because I would rather ride in a private jet too...If i had the money that is :D . Well although there are many various problems, if we keep putting our heads together something will present itself.

XtremeF150

Despite my earlier comments, I agree whole-heartedly with Snowman. Those comments were an observation. And Snowman is right, this is no different than what is going on elsewhere in the industry. The financial problems at United and Delta and most of the Legacies can even be traced back to the "triumphs" of ALPA in the late 90s with their huge pay increases they won for United and Delta mainline pilots which are now being "given back" and then some. Im sure those salaries were great for a few years but not if they make your company's cost structure unsustainable (this also has to do with management thinking that selling their product at a loss is good business but thats a whole 'nother can of worms :confused: )

I like the idea of a "minimum wage" for any airline so that regionals don't get played against each other like chumps. When labor fights against itself only management will win. If an airline like NWA goes under, we all land hard on our a$$es but management floats down gently on their golden parachutes. This does sound suspiciously communist though... Im sure Aeroflot's regional affiliates all got paid the same up until the fall of the USSR. You have to think: if management can't save money on labor anymore and they can't save money on fuel...where are they gonna "save" money? Kind of scary if you ask me. I would rather get paid $20K a year and fly an airplane I knew wasn't going to fall out of the sky then get paid $40K and fly a plane that I thought would shake to pieces every time we hit a bump.

The rambling will end soon, promise...:D To save this industry the glut of capacity needs to go away, ticket prices need to return to realistic levels and ALPA and the other pilot unions need to grow a pair of brass balls and stand up for the regional guys. Heck, an increase in regional salaries would actually improve ALPA's bottom line from increased dues! Yes, mainline is more glamorous but you have to ask, how long is it until you see the day of "RJs" crossing the pond or flying JFK-LAX transcons? I know it sounds extreme but I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibilites if airline management thought they could save a few bucks.

Sorry for the long post but I needed a good rant;)

Pilots are not and have never been overpaid.

Regional pilots especially take it in the shorts. Our companies make money hand over fist yet ask for pay cuts? Why?

When airlines tank..ask management why. They pat themselves on the back when they beat Wall Street expectations and give themselves raises. But when its rough they blame labor.

Same story in dozens of industries over several decades.

When your wife and kids are non-reving and there is smoke/fire in the cockpit what is that crews value to the company and shareholders and you?

Don't every say a pilot is overpaid.

Comair
 

Freezingflyboy is right: It is written, " A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Freezing - I'm glad you made another post to account for your lack of understanding in your first post - it is not that we are overpaid or priced ourselves out of jobs, it's that the collective industry (management) doesn't care to grow the ticket prices with their growing fuel prices. Management is playing the media while we sit back and wait for the next concession demands. I'm concerned that NWA management has an agenda that nobody is talking about yet.

Outsourcing comes to mind. If our government allows foreign ownership we haven't seen nothin' yet!

Also, XJT is flying from Houston to Flores, Guatemala and Nassau withh EMB145s. What's next?

Snowman, I like the way you think. A national union response is a long time coming.

I concur with Snoman. I said this on another POST. Every Mainline carrier Pilot group needs to get it's regional affiliates pilots one 1 seniority list. This would be the first step in establishing, for the lack of a better term, a "Minimum Wage". It will be very difficult and complicated because it entails merging seniority lists and hashing out flo-through agreements up as well as back.This will be necessarry to stop the "Race to the Bottom".

Once this is accomplished, managements won't be able to play one group against the other............Mainline Pilots don't want jobs outsourced to Rejionals. Regionals pilots want bigger A/C for bigger pay and quality time building in hopes for the shot at the big boys someday. As long as this continues the race to the bottom will continue................................

One list, one group, one contract...........................

Stand up and be counted
 

You guy's are dreaming. This a political issue, at the highest levels. We have a Republican congress with a Republican president, neither is even shy about there disdain for organised labor. They are willing to use the power of the highest land, courts, laws, threats, to coerce working Americans to not stand up to their employees. Do you think its a coincidence that union membership, nation wide is at an all time low?? Than look at pay and benefits for working Americans. Compared to upper management, you will see a trend that is undeniable, the loss of income (and retirement) of working class Americans while the highest income grow well above the rate of inflation.
Airlines, being one of the few (remaining) industies with heavy union membership, has been in the bulls-eye of our "Republican leadership" for years. National minimum wage (for airline pilots), you gotta be kidding:( The government would step in soo fast to stop that. The legal paper that would fly around Washington would make your head spin. ALPA has some political clout, but not with the party in power. Its ironic too, because I'm guessing most airline pilots vote Republican.:p
You want regional pilots (and majors, CFI's, crop dusters, etc) to earn more or at least, not earn less, than support (the) union on your property. If there isn't one, help organise one and than push for a fair, decent contract that raises the bar. If that isn't possible, leave for the best paying job when the opportunity exists. The same for CFI's, air taxi, fractional, crop dusters, pipeline patrol, what ever. Don't settle for less. If your job is not paying what it should, vote with your feet if you can't convince your boss your worth it.
Than in November, support, write, vote for, the elected leadership that is looking out for your interests. If your congressman is not supporting your right to bargain with your employer than help to give him a new job, just not in Washington.:D

There is one real crack in our industries labor unity which management has finally noticed and utilized to drive a wedge into our wall of unity and fracture it into little pieces.

The crack is the gap between mainline and regional /commuter pilot groups. Why does this gap exist? Why not have scope that starts ALL pilots flying under a company banner with that company's mainline. You start in 19 seat turboprops as ab FO and move up to 777 CA.

Why has this obvious measure not been taken by the unions? Why do we have a two class system? Easy...historically the majority of airline pilots were ex-military. These heavily military folks think it's OK for a 22 year to fly a turboprop for peanuts, but they feel their military brothers leaving the service at age 30 should not have to start at the bottom. So the mainline/commuter gap exists to provide a hole to allow military guys to sneak into that 737 without having to fly any smaller stuff. Not really that unreasonable if you think about it... BUT management found the gap and is pounding it apart with bigger and bigger "regional jets"

JO really is serious about flying narrow bodies, in case you didn't know. And the guy does not have a track record of failure.

Trust me, you dont want the Government to start getting involved in the industry. In Canada the government had its hands in every aspect of the industry. From dedciding airlines futures to SENORITY lists. The canadian government refuses to let Air Canada lower their ticket prices below that of competition. They FORCED air canada to buy Canadian airlines who were heavily in debt, with planes that were falling apart(did not upkeep them as they were suppose to). Not only did they force them to buy them, but they told air canada the pilot senority had to be date of hire! Air Canada pilots lost hundreds of numbers, took 30% paycuts. Air Canada A320 captains lost their captain position to become first officers to baby sit guys just comming off of being 737 first officer from canadian. The government also said that former canadian regional pilots would get to count their REGIONAL senority to. So a guy that only was with canadian for 1 year, but was with canadian regional for 15 years... would get 16 years senority on the new aircanada list.

Believe me, the best thing is to keep the government as far away as possible from the airlines. If the government gets involved to stop undercutting competion, than they just do what they want and dont care about what happens to the company or its employees.

First let me start off by saying that I think pilots are indeed underpaid. I think management is over paid, and whereas I think that upper management should be paid more the gap is a little too large for my liking. Both management and the pilots are being paid because of their large amount of responsibility in their descision making. Management has to make more descisions than a pilot, but a pilot's descision, just like management's, can make or break a company.

Let me add, however, that the race to the bottom can be linked to Southwest's fuel hedges. This, of course, is not the only reason, but I believe it to be a large one. Fuel was actually the largest expense to some airlines in 2005, surpassing labor. Airlines need to find some way to compete with Southwest. If they raise the ticket prices, then they lose the market, so it's easy to see where they will go to try and cut costs. As Southwest begins to lose its hedges, they will either need to accept a shrinking profit margin, or raise their prices, the rest of the market will become more competitive and other airlines will not have as much pressure on cutting costs and be able to pay their pilots more.

When it's heges run ot in 2010, things should start to look better for the rest of the industry.

I also can't help but feel sorry for whoever is on the other end of those hedges. They're completely losing their ass!

With all the Legacy carriers now paying $45-$65 less an hour than Southwest pays on comparable equipment (A319-320, MD80 and 737)
Southwest previously had another advantage in that it doesn't have a retirement plan..........Now 2 of the Big legacies don't either........with unfortunately more to follow suit.

Southwest has already lost much of its competive edge that it once held in terms of Labor costs.

Southwest has never strayed to far from their businees plan..................................A single class, no thrills, Point to point short haul carrier offering a simple fare structure. True they are flying Coast to Coast flights and have increased some 3-4hr segments..........but they have never really strayed from their core markets. WN still offers a good product for their niche...........but with them expanding heavy into the Northeast (i.e. Philly, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Baltimore) who knows........time will tell.


When the Legacies figure out what they want to be.................A full service carrier offering both Domestic and iInternational destinations.(Contiental, Northwest, DAL).....or a Mega Low cost airline......................................... (New USAirways)............The Jury is still out on United............Will their Domestic product become soley a TED style operation offering connections to Full service International? Time will tell..........................

My gut says that as soon as NW an DAL emerge from Bankruptcy (as has recently been done with UAL and USAir)......the playing field will be level (to the detriment of Labor)...............you will soon see the Majors making big profits once again.

You guys live in a vacuum. One national seniority list? Are you saying that no sane man would want to be without a union? The vast majority of the nation has decided that they do not. Do you want to force them to? Which union? ALPA, APA, Teamsters, etc.? What about a free market? The public has voted with their wallets and has decided that they will not pay the fares required to support $300,000/year Captains. So the club should be closed to new members? Shrink the airlines, the capacity, and the pilot group to support higher fares and higher salaries? give me a break.

SWA fuel hedges running out in 2010? You don't think they're buying new contracts that expire in 2011? 2012? Management making too much? ALPA didn't complain in the 1990's they just said, "Gimme some too!"

If I ever met a union pilot that was happy with his job I would die of shock.

Management alert!

Well, you haven't met me, but I am one of those happy with his job.

BTW, the $300k Captains aren't what is wrong with this industry. If the fares were anywhere close to the value they deliver, all of the airlines would be posting quarterly profits. $89 one-way coast-to-coast? Gimme a break! Oh yeah, don't forget the drain the federal government is imposing on the airlines with it's taxes and fees...

I'll second the vote to get the feds out of the business. Airlines aren't "de-regulated" just less regulated. Complete deregulation and less taxes would be better.
Again, the free market lecture. If we raised the fares from $89 to $389 nobody would buy them. And if someone can build a better mousetrap, let them. If they can run a profitable company with $89 fares then let them. That's America.

Well...

I guess the key to this statement is "if". Maybe we should start complaining that every other business in our free market is overcharging for their services/products. The plain fact is that the fares paid don't cover the costs of the operation. Maybe if the feds got out of our pockets then the industry could turn around and (most) everybody would be happy...

As you prolly know, the problem is too much capacity. Too many airlines competing for the same routes & pax. With even more startups, I wonder what the future holds. Airline deregulation has proved so sucessful its actually hurting all airlines. Maybe I too should start an airline - Ill have the employees pay me as well as the pax so they can "gain 121 experience".

One thing that I think may really help the majors is the idea of going more global rather than the overwhelmed national market. also food for thought --I think the "customer" has changed pretty rapidly for the airlines. Businesses are no longer dealing with the BS from the airlines and are going corp. or frax. All thats left for the airlines to fight over are the lousy($) vacationer that doesnt exactly have to be there.

well the experts are saying that the number of passengers are suppose to increase dramaticly. I think one source said the # of passengers should almost double by 2020 or something like that. So hopefuly the loads will catch up with Capacity soon. Than the increased demand should rise the fares. Turning the airlines profitable again, than finaly the wages will start to climb back to what they should be. Atleast thats what happens in most industries

I'm announcing a business plan for a new coast-to-coast low cost/low fare carrier!!! And you ALL are welcome to get in on the ground floor (read low seniority numbers:D ) Here is my plan for Sh!th@le Air:
- All pilots will PAY $60K a year to the airline for the first 5 years of employment and in return you will be allowed to fly a fleet of brand new, shiny B787s to some of the most exciting destinations in the country! International service to start shortly. (After 5 years of employment there will probably be potential to possibly earn a juicy salary in the high teens!)

- Flight attendants will be trained monkeys who will live in the overhead compartments. FOs will be responsible for cleaning up after the monkeys.

- Inflight service will consist of vending machines located where the lavs used to be (lavs don't generate revenue and suck to clean) and what ever you can bring aboard in your overstuffed carry-on.

- Hate those short overnights? There are none! Each aircraft will carry 3 crews who just ride on the plane for all of the 3 and 4 day trips and rotate duty periods.

- Think jet fuel is expensive? Our planes will burn promises made to the employee group!

With this business model, profits would be guaranteed and job security will be the furthest thing from your mind! With round trip airfares capped at $50, there will be customers literally breaking down our doors to fly with us! And with shiny new 787s, I'm certain there will be no shortage of pilot applicants.

Now is this a better mousetrap?

HAHAHA the Monkey FA's is the best idea ive ever heard

OOOPS. You just gave yourself away as big-time CLUELESS...

The way fuel hedges work is that you agree to buy fuel at a fixed cost based on todays KNOWN cost and any EXPECTED changes down the road...if everything goes as planned buyer and seller break even (seller maybe gets a small commission). If prices go up or down relative to the hedge, SOMEBODY loses their ass. Whover sold SWA all those hedges lo$t their a$$ in a HUGE way...there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Fuel hedging is not a stroke of genius invented by the brilliant managers at SWA. ANY company that uses energy hedges their energy costs, airlines included. BUT becaues it is a speculative venture (that means gamble) the buyer has to be in reasonable financial helth so the seller knows the buyer can make good if it doesn't go his way. After 9/11 the only airline that had the credit rating to buy hedges was...you guessed it, SWA.

Now that we know a little bit about how it works, and given that oil is now $60/barrel...lets ask ourselves who in the HELL do you think is going to sell SWA fuel hedges at $25/barrel for 2010+ ??????? Maybe YOU would....

They'd be better sex partners than the majority of our current FA's...

[QUOTE=rickair7777]OOOPS.
Now that we know a little bit about how it works, and given that oil is now $60/barrel...lets ask ourselves who in the HELL do you think is going to sell SWA fuel hedges at $25/barrel for 2010+ ??????? QUOTE]


Rickair7777
Of course SWA or (UAL, FDX Or UPS or AAL or anybody for that matter) can't buy oil at today $25/barrel........

They can however........speculate as you say or Gamble and buy oil at $65.00/barrel or $70/barrel ( just an example price, it might actually be more)..............to be deliverd in 2007 or 2008.

If oil stays at $60/barrel for the next 2 years, the hedge was a bad move because you are now paying $5 to $10/barrel more than the market price.....................but if oil goes to $85/barrel.........it was a good gamble because they will be paying $10-$15 below future market price.
If they can continually pull it off........... good on'em and good Management.

If they blow it........a senior Airline Exec will be fired and have to take his 50 million gloden parachute:mad: and the new guy will ask his employees to take a 40% pay cut,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and he will get a 75 million bonus for cutting costs.:rolleyes:

Sorry.........couldn't resist..but it is closer to truth than fiction

The european airlines are going about it the right way. Treats the regular employees like crap. Cuts cost anyway possible. But they wont mess with the pilots. Like Ryan air banned their employees from charging their cell phones at work. They cancell most flights that arnt full, have been known to refuse to make arragments for passengers that have their flight cancelled(hotel). Advertise flying into a city, but the airport is nowhere near the city( Like their frankfurt service is to a airport 100km away, or Cophenhagen Denmark service that flies into SWEDEN) Like a company cant get any cheaper than that.
Yet their 737 captains make over 100,000 pounds a year(about 200,000 US). They actualy know the worth of their pilots.

hedges are insurance. They are a relatively small expense, especially for a company with great credit and lots of cash like LUV. You still buy insurance for your house even if you don't plan on burning it down. LUV has always bought this insurance, they didn't have a crystal ball or read Nostradamus' prophecies in the Weekly World News, it just really paid off this last year. Nobody was calling them a genius for hedging their fuel 5 years ago. And yes, they probably are hedging fuel at $60, $65 and whatever else because it can always go higher. Hedging allows them to accurately predict their costs five years down the road and manage their pricing and expenses accordingly. Most airlines can barely plan for next quarter.

And one more thing about futures contracts. If you buy futures at $60 and oil drops to $50, you don't have to buy oil at $60 anyway. You let the contract expire worthless, buy oil at $50 and eat the expense of the "insurance."

The point was that SWA's big advantage is evaporating over the next few years. The only way they could maintain it is to hedge at lets say $65 and then have the market go up to $90....

But with the current volatility of energy, even getting a semi-long term hedge at TODAYs price is going to cost you...

Remember, somebody somewhere had to buy oil at $70 and turn around and sell it to SWA at $25... and they're not going to want to do that sh*t again...

True but but SW had to pay cash way back when for their hedge..............
That money in turn was used by someone else.............to raise cash.

For every hedge that pays off..........somewhere there are a few who didn't................

So for the $25/barrel SW paid when the market was $70.......................Someone somewhere lost their shirt and had $60/barrel oil when the market was $50.

Ever buy PUTS and CALLS? Very risky.............can make a ton of money or ????.

I once made 10 grand in a week............but it cost me 20 grand to do it:p

You have got to be the dumbest *@#$ on this BB!:eek:
If people want or need to fly coast to coast, why do you think $389 is too much? Look at the alternative, you can either drive, 5 days, maybe 4 if you drive all night; or.... hire NextJets or own your own GV and go that way. I'm guessing that makes a $389 fare look pretty good, doesn't it?:rolleyes:
JB, driving down Trans con fares to double digits give the traveling business flyer the preverbal "free ride" as for the leisure passenger, if they don't think their time is work 5 hours vis 5 days in a car, they should drive, saves them having to rent one on the other end:D
If airlines (read: LCC's ) want to cost there product to provide "all most"free air travel, they will find people to travel on them. Just understand, the business traveler, saving days of road travel and the productivity it provides will pay a fair price to travel vis the alternative. We could argue what "fair" is but just consider the cost of the next step up (that GV or Lear) and the costs of flying coast to coast doesn't seem so high. If the flying business men can get it for $99 or what have you, they will, laughing all the way to the bank. They'd gladly pay much more, and have.

DC,

Thanks for saying what I was thinking!

That's what I love about guys like you. Your ability to conduct a polite, logical debate. If we priced our product so that only business travelers could fly there would be a very small amount of pilots. But that's what you want, isn't it? An old boys club? And how are you going to create this Nirvana? By having Uncle Sam eliminate all competition? Name an industry that works this way. When you bought your last car, did you go out and find three identical cars and then buy the most expensive one?

communist.

I still stand by my first statement:p

This industry is not a charity and it is not civil service. Everybody in it is in it for themselves. Managers will INVARIABLY act in their own self-interest every time, with total disregard to the well being of employees, the public, and even stockholders.

The pilot groups need to operate in the same manner. The exception is safety, pilots as a group won't compromise, while management has reduced compromising safety to a fine art form.

Normally there would be a sensible pricing point which would maximize revenue. This point, almost by definition, will drive away some (perhaps many) low budget customers. And that is GREAT. If the government wants to subsidize low-cost airtravel for poor people, then everyone can vote on that...but we as pilots and the industry in general have NO obligation to give a remote **** about who can or cannot afford our services.

There complex reasons as to why we are not operating at the aformentioned pricing point (having to do with fixed and variable costs).