What happend to working for a job and not paying for one? This is getting rediculous
 

I don't understabd some of you guys, why waste all that money to go to some BS program like RAA which doesn't gaurentee you Shi*&. What is so bad about busting your ass to get all the ratings that will allow you to teach what you love.....flying. I never regretted any 1 hr I had in a 172 or the 1000hrs of dual given, or the $500 hamburger in the Duchess. Flying is about passion, about remembering looking up at the sky when we could barely walk and just think wow that is awesome, and someday.......maybe I can fly an airliner. Well go out and get your CFI (you really only learn to fly once you start teaching) and enjoy it. There is this rediculous assumption that instructing is a waste of time when you can pay some bull**** flight school to "gaurentee" you an INTERVIEW, thats rediculous, besides it will be alot more rewarding when you bust your ass, put your time in and do it on your own, not through some bull**** "bridge program". That being said I don't mean to bash anybody who went to these programs, just my humble opinions, feedback anyone?

You sound quite angry, any reason for this anger? To me people that are going through programs like that are doing because its a quick way to get into what they love. Not to mention a lot of people get started in their flying career late, why not get through quickly. As far as RAA programs and others I believe becoming a CFI is part of their programs. Not that I'm standing up for any program. And I would agree everyone I talk to loves being a CFI, they all say they have learned a lot. To say that RAA and others like it are a waste is just plain wrong, what better way than surronding yourself with people who love aviation on a daily basis. Go about becoming a pilot anyway you want its your own choice.

SAABaroowski,

Simple...some of us don't know any better, while others are older and the fast tracks get us to hire without the CFI step. There's nothing wrong with the CFI gig. Some people just rather get in the game faster. Try to imagine starting your retirement investments at 18 vs. 40. If someone told you that at the end of your 60th birthday, you'll have the same investment portfolio as that 18 year old, wouldn't you jump on it if you were interested in it? Of course you would.

No one is arguing that we have no passion for flying. I think any idiot would know that you really have to have passion to spend big dollars to fly. Yes, renting a Cessna for $100 an hour is big dollars considering how many hours you need to be competitive at the regionals. Most people would put the cost of flight training into a down payment to a house. It's not a question of passion.

Personally, I didn't know any better. But now I do and I wouldn't do it again in a million years (getting myself into a fast track program). If I had to go back and do it again, I would get the ratings that mattered (which is to say that DC-9 type rating was a waste of money for me at this point) and take my time getting it, get the CFI and fly on my terms...because my passion is flying, not paying huge dollars to be in a huge debt so that I can start making $18k a year while giving up my quality of life.

These fast track programs do serve a purpose. The flip side is that a lot of us newbies don't know the industry, and frankly, don't know any better. I think the opinions and real life experiences that people share on this board is PRICELESS. I only wish I knew about it before I dumped the purchase price of a condominum into my training.

I think that as more and more people go through these "fast track" programs with expectations of grandeur and quick upgrades and "chasing the dream", they will find that the airlines aren't exactly what they thought they were signing up for.

Personally, I don't think that many of the people who go through "direct to jet" programs have the commitment to ride out the lows that invariably come with the job.

I'd be interested in seeing what the ratio of these people remain in the industry after so many years as opposed to others that come through more traditional routes.

It all goes back to that "didn't know any better" thing. It would be nice for someone in the industry to make an educational video of what the reality of the pilot career is all about. Something like that would be a great asset for organizations like AOPA or other web sites so that the knowledge is out there that's searchable on the Internet for prospective individuals.

I think ignorance is the biggest problem. People don't know what they're getting into with aviation, and they don't know what they're missing by PFTing. I also don't think they've thought about what they're doing to the industry as a whole. I don't think a lot of them even realize that fellow pilots look down on such behavior. They're just trying to get the job fast, which is what most of us want to do, just not by PFTing. To be fair to aviation, though, I do know of circumstances where lawyers payed for their first job.

In a nutshell, I'm with flying ninja

Thanks for the feedback fellas, I was just making sure most were on the same page as I. like I said being an airline pilot (at least for me) isnt exactly what I thought, I mean I love it, but 6-8 legs a day flying through the weather picking up tons of ice, ground holds at LGA, though is an invaluable experince, is work! I feel that most of us at the regional level would love to fly something larger than a 90 seat rj (hey, im in a 34pax T-prop so no disrespect to the rj drivers) but lets face it the only way to get on with a major is through years of hard work and gaining experience, I just wish the Regionals were the same (not as strict of course) I know of no "bridge" program to CAL's 737 or Southwests, its all about paying our dues and working long miserable days and getting screwed by crew scheduling. So when these people come out of some program with 500hrs and they feel they have earned themselves a job flying 121, they need to get a grip!.... and to the post above that said I was "angry" it's not anger, Im just trying to understand, and i meant no offense to anybody.

Video
 

I think that I would have a few things to add to that video !!! But really AOPA would never support such an endeavor. Neither would Flying Magazine. They are the drug pushers !! Perhaps an individual group should make the video and mail it out to every new student pilot. We could ask for a donation at the end of the film.

SKyHigh

Bridge Programs to the Majors
 

Don't fool yourself. There are plenty of bridge programs to the majors and if you don't find one you had better get comfortable in that turboprop since that is where your career will be. Getting to the majors is all about who you know and not about your resume. The best route is through the "friends and family" plan. An airlines "stated" minimums are very flexible for the right people. Paying dues is a false and very naive concept and will lead you to a lifetime of due paying without any getting. In aviation the cheaters will win.

SkyHigh

Getting to the majors can be done by applying off the street if the hiring is on. AA was known for interviewing people based on their relevant qualifications, not who they knew. SWA will also do that (if you buy the type), but the success rate at their interviews is something like 20-30% (after you buy the type $$$).

Also it helps to have SOMETHING going for you that makes you stand out from the pack. A recomendation works, but also advanced education, athletics, extra-curricular activities, military background, interesting hobbies, etc. Take up traithlons or writing magazine articles or something. You should probably avoid base jumping, motorcycle racing, political activism, etc...

AOPA isn't about being an airline pilot. It's about being a pilot. Most of the articles in there are focused on the aircraft owner or private pilot. They very seldom do an article on anything larger than a citation. Flying is the magazine that targets those with stars in their eyes. Looking at the three most recent issues of AOPA Pilot that I could find, there were a total of 5 ads (all smaller than a half page) from DCA and some unheard of program in Florida.

What were the articles about? Well, the first one had a neat retrospective on the J-3 Cub. December's was a DC-3 (getting closer). Good article in the January issue about the PC-12 too. But guess what, it's geared towards somebody who could afford that aircraft. The only recent article that had anything relating to transport category flying was a piece on corporate flying clubs that featured Boeing Flying Club's 172 posed next to a 773 with a number of Boeing employees smiling for the camera.

I only have one student right now who has dreams of flying an airliner. The other 8 are all in their 40s to 50s, and finally have the time and means needed to persue a dream of being a private pilot, are finishing up on something they started back in their 20s as a hobby, or are dusting off a 15 year old rating.

How many of you have ever read an AOPA magazine or looked at their website?

Those glossy ads are big revenue for ALL of the flying mags. They are very unlikely to ever publish an unbiased article which would be sure to p*ss off their cu$tomer$ (their customers are the folks who buy their ad space, not the readers BTW).

AOPA has fewer such ads because their reader base is different, but they have enough to not want to irritate the big schools.

Save that poor kid's soul and vere him away from a flying career.

I read the magazine but don't look at their web site. AOPA has pretty pictures of airplanes, that's all I get out of it. But you're right, AOPA might not be the place for an informationa video on the aviation career path. But it's definitely something that should be out there. I'd do it if I was on the other side of the fence. Hopefully pilots on this board who have experienced the regional rape experience can take lead on it.

Doctors pay for med school. Lawyers pay for law school. It is ok for pilots to pay to money to get trained.

Where I agree with the original post is the pilot academies. I looked at some pilot academies (Raa, Mesa, FlightSafety, PanAm, Comair), and the fact was I was paying MUCH more for the same aircraft, MUCH more for the instructor, and MUCH LESS flying for the same amount of money as an FBO. Would you spend an extra $40,000 on a "guarenteed interview." Not me.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to fly for a living. I think he's making the right call and majoring in something OTHER than aviation. Too many people forget that there are other options out there than being "raped" by the regionals. In fact, a little self respect and pride in your training and abilities should be enough to help. I seen a lot of pilots on here, as well as through my career that spout off about how this or that is destroying the industry, and how everybody needs to take a stand yet at the same time the same pilot would stab another in the back if it benefits his position.

There's nothing wrong with glossy pictures of airplanes in a magazine about flying. I don't see how a Mooney Ovation threatens your job. I like the fact that they have been fighting tooth and nail to keep the FAA from being privatized (look at how well that's worked in canada) as well as trying to elimiate some airspace restrictions that have harmed the industry like the DC ADIZ.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. Rather than blaming these young, starry-eyed ones for destroying the industry take a proactive approach and get them on our side.

The AMA and the state bars control the entrance requirements that new graduates must meet in order to be certified in their field. Those organizations do a great job of keeping the barriers high enough to limit new entrants and prevent an excess supply that could force doctors to work for regional airline pilot wages. This has the fringe benefit of ensuring quality in their fields.

Pilotpip, couldn't agree with you more. If something isn't going the way you would like it to, before you start complaining, ask yourself, "what have I done to improve this situation?" If the answer is "nothing", then I recommend you stop complaining and start taking the initiative to improve things. Too often we sit back and complain and expect others to fix our problems for us. Look at the Katrina disaster. You would have thought that people were completely helpless there. Complaining the gov't wasn't giving them enough money, or help, or folding their laundry for them. Anyways, I say support others' dreams and good will come back to you, regardless of what happens to them. The complaining I read on these forums can be summed up in one word..."Pollution". That is all it does to help the aviation industry by polluting communication channels like APC Forums with complaints and envious bashing of other peoples endeavors.

Hey SAAbaroowski,

When did you interview and get hired? I was there Nov 18 for an interview. I am kind of curious as to how some like it there. I thought it was a pretty good operation just long flying days and no per diem was kind of a turn off for me but, I would have taken job if it was offered.

Saabrooski are you based in ABE?

I don't work for any airlines. I've read enough on the messgae boards and have gone through a high price tag flight training program to form my own opinion. My stand is to advise people to avoid these flight training programs and look for alternatives and give suggestions based on the mistakes I've made and the cost involved with those mistakes.

I don't have any problems with AOPA's magazine. Like I said, I like the pretty pictures.

I've done everything I possibly can to get into the aviation industry. Unfortunately, people who encouraged me to chase this flying dream of mine are indirectly responsible for my poor broke ass as I have spent everything I earned to chase the dream. Have I done everything? I don't know. You tell me. Have I spent all my money chasing the dream? Absolutely! So your generalization, while appreciated, doesn't apply to people like me. What can you do when you have no more money and you're over $100K in debt with no way of paying it back and jobless? I'm open to your suggestions so that I can answer your question, "what have I done to improve this situation?" because right now, I'm asking, "what have I done that got me into this situation?" Of course, I'm being sarcastic. I know what I did. I listend to people who said, "go for your dream...so many people don't chase their dreams...flying is great, you'll get a job...oh, you're going to Embry-Riddle's CAPT program? oh...Riddle has a great reputation..." Yeah, all that bullsh!t landed my ass broke with no job and no options left but to go back to the desk job I had.

Dream chasing can be deadly and expensive.

Of couse it can be deadly and expensive, but if you're not careful, sex can be those too.

Ninja, I feel for you. I'd be disgrutled if I were in the same boat you're in right now as well. CAPT gave you a bogus deal and unfortunately there are too many of you guys out there getting screwed by dishonest advertising and dishonest people. It's not right, and I really respect you for sharing your story on here. I really hope things work out for you.

I've been lucky. My jobs afforded me a lot of advice from veterans of the industry, I've worked at an FBO, and a bicycle shop near STL where much of our customer base was employed by TWA. My eyes were opened to the ugly side pretty quickly. I've seen firsthand what a buyout can do to the guys on the loosing side, I even lost a job as a result of it ($2000 bikes suddenly become an unimportant luxury when you can't put food on the table). I didn't know how much pilots made when I started training, and now I'm even happier that it wasn't the reason for this career path.

The only way I have afforded this is by sacrificing, and choosing a school where my flight training cost the same as any other degree. My parents aren't wealthy, in fact they're quite the opposite. I work a ton of hours every week but I wouldn't have it any other way. I have loans but they're managable. I won't be driving a nice new car anytime soon, or taking extravagant vacations but I know I'll make ends meet that's all that matters. I could make ends meet on less than I'm making now, I just haven't changed my lifestyle and have no intentions on doing that in the near future.

I've been offered management positions with the company that I currently work for at their ground handling stations. I'd have security, and a respectable salary, but I'd be looking at the ramp wishing I was that guy looking out from the front seat.

If all else fails, enroll in CEO school and major in thievery.

[QUOTE from FlyingNinja]
I've done everything I possibly can to get into the aviation industry. Unfortunately, people who encouraged me to chase this flying dream of mine are indirectly responsible for my poor broke ass as I have spent everything I earned to chase the dream. Have I done everything? I don't know. You tell me. Have I spent all my money chasing the dream? Absolutely! So your generalization, while appreciated, doesn't apply to people like me. What can you do when you have no more money and you're over $100K in debt with no way of paying it back and jobless? I'm open to your suggestions so that I can answer your question, "what have I done to improve this situation?" because right now, I'm asking, "what have I done that got me into this situation?" Of course, I'm being sarcastic. I know what I did. I listend to people who said, "go for your dream...so many people don't chase their dreams...flying is great, you'll get a job...oh, you're going to Embry-Riddle's CAPT program? oh...Riddle has a great reputation..." Yeah, all that bullsh!t landed my ass broke with no job and no options left but to go back to the desk job I had.

Dream chasing can be deadly and expensive.[/QUOTE]


Hey ninja, it definitely appears that you have exhausted all means to make you dream a reality, but you know that if you let this overwhelm you it will be that much harder to see things clearly, i.e. getting some aviation work! What I said is merely a self-reflective process that causes people to help uncover a solution to a problem as opposed to adding "fuel to the fire". You are in a pickle my friend, and I don't know your whole story but as others have noted, thank you for sharing it with the group. I was considering the CAPT program but was discouraged by the prices, and the negativity that I had heard from the grapevine. You have only helped other future aviators from stepping into your predicament, for that I salute you. However my salute will not land you a job, obviously, and considering I am rather new to the aviation world myself, I cannot offer you an easy way to any job. But I'm curious, why not instruct somewhere and earn at least some income and gain more experience? If you are already doing that then great. I'm not a pessimist, and fully believe if there's a will there's a way, so as corny as this sounds, "never give up". Look for opportunity every day, and stay positive even in the face of $100,000 looming over you. But to give up your dream when the goin gets tough is ultimate defeat.

I can definitly see how Mr. Ninja would be discouraged. $100,000 is a LOT of money. I myself am relatively new to aviation, but I have an idea to help him get out of debt. You could be a drug runner! I bet the pay is pretty sweet, and what could be better than flying a mexican lear jet. It's only a crime if you get caught! But I do agree that ERAU is a bunch of turd.

Hi ATP,

I'm done with the aviation career path. Unless I find a job that will base me out of my home, there's no way I can afford to pay my loan, bills with rent and utility (yes, that includes a crashpad). I wasn't kidding when I said I was broke. ;) Frankly, I'm not even sure how I'm going to pay my car insurance next month. I guess I'll have to find out just how useful those police PBA cards are.

I don't have a CFI certification so I can't instruct. You don't walk out of CAPT with a CFI. I've been whoring myself to some folks to act as safety pilot. I know it's useless flying since I'm not at the controls, but at least I won't have to pay for anything...it's the only way I can get any measurable distance AGL. Sad indeed. My presence here on the board is to act as a watch dog for people that inquire about the fast track program and the issues relating to that, and share my experience so that they won't make the same mistakes. There are issues that people just don't talk about. Most prefer to talk only about the dream.

I'm not overwhelmed anymore. I've accepted that I'm not going to be flying for a living. The stress and blood pressure suddenly dropped once I made that realization and decision. Of course I'm keeping an eye out for opportunities...if someone is willing to offer me a corporate job with my 460TT/101ME at a salary that I can make ends meet. You and I both know that is never going to happen. I'm a realist. And realistically speaking, I don't have any more money to chase this dream. My goal is only to make money to pay off the mistake of signing up with CAPT.

Need a safety pilot? ;)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll save that one for when I can't afford food anymore. At least in prison they feed you and give you a nice world class gym to use (most likely so that you can defend yourself from the boyfriends).

Ninja, I can't imagine it will help much, but I'm a CFI and and I'm planning on in a month or two flying the NY VFR corridor. If there's space, you could sit left seat, and I could give you some instruction. Free of charge. Help you get a couple hours. PM me if you're interested.

Ninja,
Now I feel your pain for real. I did not realize that you don't get a CFI ticket from CAPT, now that bites! Sorry to hear you are done with aviation, but like you said, you'll still look for those golden opportunities to jump back in. I can tell you this, "I will never attend the CAPT program!"
Drug running is a lucrative career, so I see on America's Most Wanted, but I'd have to suggest contract work in Iraq. Those cats are making some serious moola, that is if you enjoy bullets buzzing past your skull. Regardless of all this sh#&, stay upbeat Ninja, and good things just have to happen.

Flying Ninja:

Whatever you do, don't give up. We all have to make some tough decisions when it comes down to a career and I can truly identify with you. My decision came in the area of airport management. Although my situation then is different from yours, I had to make a decision as to whether or not I was going to continue to invest my time, effort, money and most of all PASSION AND DESIRE into something that wasn't showing any sign of getting better. Between 2001 and 2004, I applied to for at least 40 positions in airport mgmt. Alot of those positions were entry-level and I have a Riddle education. Riddle these days as far as I'm concern means nothing. I'm grateful for my education, but the name Riddle has lost its mystique, if you will.

Even though I was turned down for all of those positions I just redirected my efforts. I have turned my desire and passion toward flying. I always wanted to become an airline pilot. I wanted to fly for either Eastern or National Airlines. (i'm sure there are some out there who remember those two companies:) ). Like I've said before, I'm not looking to become Senior Chief Pilot of Airline ABC. I just want to fly for a living and that means flying as a CA or FO for a major or regional, given the time I have left, or doing the corporate, charter thing, or some other aspect of Part 135 or 141 flying. Either way, I don't believe that all of my or (your )time, effort, faith, passion and desire will go unfulfilled.

Continue to perservere my friend.

"but the name Riddle has lost its mystique"

I went to Riddle in 1981 because of it's mystique. In 1983, I found out it going to Riddle didn't mean anything in the industry. At least, that was my experience.

Good point on choosing schools
 

I started at Spartan because it was supposed to be such a great and reputable school What I found out is that their priority was training Chinese pilots for the Chinese government, and that the rest of us were navel lint. It took me 20 days to get my first stage check for private. I was scheduled twice during that period, but was bumped and was told specifically that I was being bumped to accomodate a Chinese student.

There must be some kind of deal with chinese pilots being trained in the US. Pan Am flight school in AZ has tons of asian pilots. It's hilarious and scary at the same time. If you've ever heard them on the radio you know what I'm talking about. " Gateway tower re rant a tucha and a go". I've practically mastered the chinese language just by trying to figure out where they are. Good times. On an even less serious note whats the longest anyone has ever had to hold it while they were flying? I had to hold it for 45min today and thought I was going to die it hurt so bad.:(

ROFLMAO!! Yeah, I remember the days of laughing my ass off listening to some of those radio calls. I was at Spartan April - Nov '04. As I understand it, Spartan lost the Chinese contract. Perhaps Pan Am picked up the business. When I was there, they had so many Chinese students (over 100 at a time, at least) there was a full-size school bus that did nothing but drive back and forth from student housing to the airport, 16 hours a day.

Go before you leave. If I'm gone on a cross country, or longer flight I take a bottle. Also, I'm not going to let my bladder rupture because somebody has the aircraft right after we're due back. I'll divert if it comes to that point!

de727ups:

What year did you finish Riddle and which campus?

I was out of Prescott in 81 and 82. International campus after that and officially graduated in 83.

The problem was that the bottle I brought had water in it, and I couldn't divert because I was in BBF AZ and there was nowhere to divert to. It was horrible. Nothing but mountains. I wanted to just go out the storm window, but I couldn't hold the controls and do my thing at the same time. :D That's why I don't normally drink coffe. But when you get up at 5 its hard not to.

Hey SAA, we've all just chosen different routes to the same goal. Despite what sometimes may seem like bickering, I suspect we're all on the same page. I just wanna fly. If you pursue it via the CFI route, fine. If I pursue it via the quickie program, fine too.

I was hesitant to go this route until I spoke to actual people who actually did it. As far as commitment, I've spent two years, away from my wife and kids most of the time, working menial part time jobs, studying my ass off and flying my ass off, so I'm not sure what anyone is talking about when they speak about their uncertainty of one's committment.

Actually, this whole "buying a job" things doesn't seem any different from college itself. A Rutgers education, with all your room/board, etc., comes out to about $60K over 4 years (for in-state students). Your parents paying all that for you to get a meteorology degree, and go out and start working as an overnight forecaster making not much more that a regional FO. So it might be the same ouside of aviation. Granted, Rutgers is one of the most expensive state schools in the nation (my buddy's parents don't pay nearly that much for ASU), but you get the idea. Might be screwed on both sides of the fence.

The only difference is that you don't need hours to work at a meterology desk or any other job for that matter. Sure, they might want some internship experience, but try selling that one to the airlines. You can't compare a college degree with an aviation flight training. At least you can go anywhere with a college degree...try getting a job with only your high school diploma and a commercial certification outside of aviation. Let me know how far one gets. ;)

So is everyone bent out of shape over programs like Pan Am and ATP/ RAA or just any flight school period? And how is flying through an FBO any different than a flight school? I've done both and its a little bit cheaper at the FBO, but I was also flying a 172 that was build in the 1950's. I have to say that paying more for better planes is ok with me. I think that most of the hostility directed toward flight schools is aimed at the type of programs where you can get all of your ratings in 2 weeks. If thats the case then I know what you're talking about. I fly at an airport with ATP, RAA, occasionaly Pan Am, and a helicopter school.(43 busiest airport in the country) Then there are the two college programs from ASU and UND. Guess which schools have people needing to give the tower a call more often? They aren't the same programs.
Also how is it the fault of young pilots for driving wages down (Im not trying to be cocky)? I just wonder how that works with union contracts and the like. I think you guys should be more worried about having your jobs outsourced to china or india.

Oh and one more thing. Why don't pilots try to get more pilots involved with their airline in managment. Wouldn't that make things better? If anyone knows how to run an airline its a captain whos been with the company for 30 years not some douche fresh out of business school who doesnt know the difference between a 777 and a CRJ. Plus they would keep the pay rates up for everyone. WHY ISNT THIS A COMMON OCCURENCE?

Thanks to everyone who contributes to these forums. I've only been around for a couple of weeks and have already learned a lot.