Guys...

Here's what I posted on eaglelounge.com as to the question of how Eagle pilots should be treating the TSA pilots.

I would hope that you would treat these pilots just as you would like to be treated - like professional aviators.

Our problem is not with them. It is with AA and AE management who don't see a problem with furloughing their own employees while outsourcing jobs to another company.

It seems clear that they seem intent on positioning themselves for 2013 so as not to have only one provider of regional feed. CEO Arpey and CFO Horton have virtually spelled this out in so many words. Horton, by the way, was the one who crafted the Expressjet deal with CAL. You might deduce what his intentions might be for the Eagle pilot group.

For now, ALPA is working with an outside law firm, specialists in airline scope cases, on our grievance on the TSA flying. We have a case because they are using our very own planes. But, even if we are successful in the TSA case, what would stop AMR from inviting some other XYZ regional to perform our flying?

Our scope contract language covers flying by American Eagle Airlines - not by AMR.

We certainly won't let this go by quietly, though. We may need the combined help of the entire pilot group in the next few weeks.

Capt. Rich Krutenat
MEC Communications Chairman

FOR THE RECORD:
According to statistics from our own management, Eagle pilots are as productive or more productive as any other regional airline pilot group. Eagle pilots have excelled at implementing our fuel savings programs. Eagle is just as competetive as TSA in that AMR pays exactly the same price for both airlines to perform the regional feed function. Eagle's profits are lower, because our costs are higher, but it is not true that "TSA does it cheaper" - at least not from AMR's perspective.

Quit whining about someone giving you a dirty look. High school ended a while back and I'm not sure if you have figured this out yet, not everyone has to like you and some people will hate you for no reason. Get over it, go to work, and shut up.

Something I was thinking about while I was sitting on the "back of the Bus" on my way to Chicago tonight:

Eagle ALPA has had a serious issue with the AMR owned airplanes being operated by Connection. It has gone to an arbitrator and my understanding is that the arbitrator ruled on the side of AMR that because Eagle could not staff the airplanes, the resource should be operated by whoever could staff them (Connection). If I worked for TSA anywhere near the bottom of the list, this would have be a little concerned.

Perhaps (PERHAPS) mgmt had a point that we couldn't staff the airplanes and that they needed the lift, so someone else should fly the planes.

Mgmt used the same staffing excuse when shifting flying in MIA from ORD based Eagle pilots to Connection (why they didn't try to reallocate staff from BOS or LGA is somewhat suspect but i digress).

NOW we have a situation where AMR is parking eagle airplanes and publicly talking about 230+ furloughs. Clearly the staffing situation is fixed with no saabs in the air so the arbitrator will likely side with ALPA and say that since eagle has staffing, they can operate the leased EMBs.


EGL ALPA seems to be committed to fighting this fight so you folks at TSA might want to get your MEC thinking. If the arbitrator rules in Eagle's favor, you very well might be in a situation in which Eagle takes back the MIA flying and the 10 airplanes. All of us stand to loose from this situation, ALL OF US!


Capt. Rich Krutenat is right, its not the "boys from Missouri" doing this, its Uncle Hulas and Herr Arpy. If an AE pilot treats you like scum, I personally apologize. I understand where they come from but we are doing exactly what management wants us to do. If we treat each other with respect and convince our ALPAs to work together for the common good we can beat mgmt at their own game.

Sorry for the rambling, its getting late and I have to be up at 4...Take care and fly safe all!

Fellas, I'd be pi**ed too but your problem is with management. I believe most guys understand this. As previously stated it is your company that is screwing you guys not TSA pilots. I've got a few buds down in MIA and all of them are focusing their energy at management and not fellow pilot groups.

if we didnt have a "no strike" clause, this would be struck flying.

but you do, so its not.

but the point is still valid.

hey TSA guys, what exactly has the MIA guys been doing anyways?

nice avatar, btw.

i havent been to MIA yet, i asked this same question of the original poster MANY posts ago. but seriously, relax on the struck flying. it's not struck flying, we are not crossing any picket line, and we really can't do anything about it. its not our fight. in all seriousness, i hope you guys win and get it back. a win vs. mngmnt for any pilot group is a win for all of us. but at the same time, i will not not be chastised in MIA for doing my job, if anything is even going on.

Seriously! Who cares? If someone is rude to you, then that is their problem. If I walk by an ASA pilot (just using an example because I like ASA) and he snubs me or gives me the stink eye, crook eye, or evil eye, then I'll carry on. The next time I walk by an ASA pilot, I'll still tell him/her hello or give the "how u doin'" nod.

There is no reason to get upset with TSA guys. NONE! They have about as much control over their flying as Eagle pilots are able to control theirs.

Chautauqua guys often get treated poorly here in CVG by Comair guys. The Chautuaqua pilots had absolutely nothing to do with the flying that DELTA gave them at our expense. I don't fault the Chautauqua pilots. I vent my anger and frustration towards management.

If you guys are indeed treating the TSA guys poorly, then AMR management has won and they have you exactly where they want you. They successfully put one pilot group against another. This is the doing of AMR management, not TSA!

the thread started with a why question - now the posters here should have an appreciation for the ae pilot's position at least. their flying is being contracted out - tsa pilots are the vehicle - nothing personal it's just business. just don't expect to be treated to adult beverages any time soon.

Waa waaa... just dont take it on he TSA pilots. BS. Their MEC is condoning the action.They haven't done anything to stop it.

It just amazes me how TSA pilots say that it isn't the pilots' fault, it is AMR management, and not to take it out on the pilots. So by the same token, don't take it out on GoJet pilots, as TSA's problem is with TSA management! In both cases, the respective managements were/are looking to outsource the flying, violating the pilot groups' existing contract.

I personally don't think anyone gains anything by bickering. But if some of you TSA guys hate GoJet, then maybe you should understand why some Eagle guys hate TSA right now.

Just to set the record straight, I'm a Comair pilot, not TSA. However, I respectfully disagree with your statement. Comparing TSA to Eagle and TSA to GoJets is apples to oranges.

TSA has flown for AA since the TWA purchase and AMR decides where and when they fly, not TSA.

TSA management created a scab airline, GoJets to bust the unionized TSA pilots, among other reasons. Pilots going to GoJets knew what they were getting into when they were hired on (hopefully). They were going to a Mesa-esque airline that lowers the industry bar and makes it difficult for the rest of us to try to earn a halfway decent living.

In reality, Go Jet pilots are not scabs. They were not formed to bust the union at TSA. I don't think they took any routes that TSA was flying for AA. It was formed to circumvent the scope at AA. They had to be a different certificate ala CHQ buying Shuttle and putting the 170 on there.

No picket lines crossed, no struck work flown. I guess that's why a few Go Jet guys are getting hired at majors.

How would TSA pilots feel if it were announced Eagle was going to do most of the flying in STL and TSA was going to park airplanes and possibly furlough several hundred. I do realize TSA has said there will be some furloughs and downgrades, but not the same magnitude.

so tsa downsizes and go jets grows
one big happy family

Pollo Azul

This is EXACTLY why XJT will NOT negotiate on scope. Its a good thing to have. Pretty crappy feeling seeing your airplane flown by another company...esp TSA.

Why don't you go work for GoJets if your so confident in that explanation? GoJet was formed because TSA pilots refused to fly CRJ7's for 50 seat rates. You are completely misinformed if you think otherwise. And no, I wouldn't like is too much if eagle came into STL and started flying the routes, but I'd understand that the pilots had nothing to do with it and it was all management. Also, a dirty look is one thing, i don't give a damn about that, but beyond that I would expect you to act professionally. i'm not asking you guys to take us to dinner, i know the greeting wont be warm by any means, but dont be tools.

what does that mean? :confused: nobody wants to see eagle downsized and i would hope you wouldn't wish layoffs on anyone, karma's a b***h.

here we go now with the "my regional is better than yours" BS! :rolleyes: get over yourselves.

And here we go with the flamebait BS! Get over yourself.
I think Eagle guys have every reaon to be a irritated. I do see a problem with American furloughing Eagle pilots and replacing them with the cheaper alternative. Sorry to inform you but pay and benefits are much higher at Eagle than TSA, and its the same old story with Eagle / AMR / and TSA. As long as people settle to work for peanuts and be treated like dirt NOTHING will change.

My point in bring up scope at XJT was that it is an example of what having a good CBA is about. It is NOT simply about pay. And why XJT did not sell it out to MAYBE be furloughed by a new management. Amazing how pilot groups sell their contract and souls all for a job for a few months more. (Mesa ?!?) So flame away if you want but thats the truth.

AA scope prevents a company that is providing feed to have anything larger than 50 seats. If they do, the APA gets compensated. There is an exception for the Eagle ATRs and CRJs. TSA had to have a different certificate to operate 70 seat a/c for United. But what do I know, I guess I could learn from a 145 FO who has probably been there 2 years.:rolleyes:

Here is an excerpt:
"This letter modifies the agreement between the Allied Pilots Association (“APA”) and American Airlines, Inc. (“Company”) dated May 1, 2003 regarding Section 1 - Scope. Specifically, the parties agree to make an exception in which Trans States Airlines (“TSA”) may operate, in aggregate, no more than three (3) ATR 72 aircraft or other turbo prop aircraft certificated in the United States and Europe for a maximum passenger capacity of between 51 and 70 seats, in the American Connection Operation in STL without losing its status as a Commuter Air Carrier. "

Jesus, I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you people. Republic/CHQ operate aircraft for BOTH American Connection, and 70 seaters for United Express with pilots on the SAME SENIORITY LIST. The planes must be on a different certificate, yes, but that does not preclude them from being flown by pilots on one list. TSA did not do this specifically because they wanted to use Gojets to undermine the TSA pilot group. (Because TSA pilots refused to fly 70 seat aircraft for the same pay rates as the 50 seaters.) Again, the --aircraft-- have to be on a different certificate, scope has nothing to do with the pilots!!!

exactly...thank u for explaining again tbucket. some people dont get it. and another thing i guess has to be explained again, is that we're working and fighting for a better contract, and support would be nice instead of saying that we "work for peanuts". i dont even know why i'm responding to someone from XJET who has no idea though. i've got some friends over there im glad their not as unsupportive as you. i said it once and i'll say it again and then i'm done with this topic, i dont expect a warm greeting in MIA, but be disrespectful and unprofessional, and you'll get it right back. just do your job and keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything good to say.

right back at you

I am merely pointing out why Go Jets was formed. Who flies it is your argument. I realize TSA pilots didn't want to fly 70 seats for 50 seat pay, but you could look at it another way. Skywest flew larger aircraft before they had a pay increase for them. Do you think it would have been wise to fly them as one list, get them on property, then negotiate as a whole rather than face what you do now?

Just out of curiosity, if you are a 145 FO, were you even working at TSA when Go Jet started?

still waiting....... chirp ... chirp

i asked the same question twice now, like i said, i haven't been to MIA yet and i asked what was going on...
but hey, lets keep this mature, huh?

I know, I stepped a little out of bounds.

But seriously guys, we need some examples. You cant just come here all upset about how bad we are treating you, then not give any examples of it.

I went into Miami the first morning we started flying there and walked around the terminal for a bit. I even ran into a couple of Eagle pilots and have nothing bad to say about the way my crew was treated. They were very professional and even pointed the way to "La Carreta". I hope the incidents mentioned here are the exception, and judging from my experience I think they are. Of course we don't expect a welcome to Miami gift basket, but I'm sure we're all past the high-school drama.

thats what i would expect from them. i know some guys there and know that most of that pilot group is professional and fun to be around. as in every pilot group, there are a few exceptions. i wanted the original poster to post what he had heard or experienced, but so far no examples of anything worth mentioning. sorry for the fuss guys.

OK A10crewdawg, you're being called on to the carpet here. You are the one who started this bickering thread, so you are the one who needs to let us know:

what did we (MIA Eagle Guys) do that offended you so much?

The TSA Pilots absolutely did the right thing by turning down that joke of a contract. I wish the SkyWest Pilots had done a bit more of the same when mgmt asked us to fly for a single rate for over two years...But that wasn't my call...! Remember how shocked we were that the majority of us here voted for the last pay-raise?! Oh well...still making BHO :mad:

FWIW...The CHQ planes painted in AA colors are holdovers from TWA. They flew for TWA with a merger clause that applied when AA bought TWA. Somehow, when the paint scheme changed...Eagle thought they should just manifest-destiny their way into STL. Not so much...

Just wanted to toss that out there since I read about 3 posts and skipped to the end.

Hmmm.. still no examples of being mistreated in MIA

Sorry flyforcash, i'm not on here every day.

Examples:

1.) Stepping on us while on the radio (Was expected but not necessary)

2.) Keeping up relations via the bird. Can you tell me that this is an example of being professional? If that's what an Eagle pilot represents then you better bet I'm proud to not be there.

3.) See example two but while in the terminal.


Any other TSAers out there sound off.

As we began to taxi, I waved at a AE ERJ passing us and the crew who saw me didn't acknowledge. On a side note, I jumpseated on a AE flight at LAX after the MIA flying announcement and crew were nice, must be a regional thing.

What is the difference?
Then I can say that AA flying is not AA flying it is AMR's and Eagle can do the JFK-LHR run.

I see your point, but I guess what I mean is that AMR created the "American Eagle" we know today to compliment AA's services. Since AE is not only at the mercy of AMR like any regional/major relationshiop, they are also owned by them so AE's own path is fairly tightly controlled by AMR. Conflict of interest? Maybe, I don't know the ins and outs of the AMR family.

Bottom line, you aren't equal to AA in AMR's eyes so I'm not sure I agree with the comparison made.

Eagle Planes
 

Don't get CHQ mixed up in this. Last I saw, we own / lease our birds (and they're not from Eagle, and they're all 140's in AA colors). TSA also did not have that many Eagle birds if memory serves me correctly (Most were Swiss, just the ones with window shades were eagles). And we're not doing any MIA flying.

P.S. before you start having a coronary, didn't I notice eagle doing more flying out of STL? Or did CHQ/TSA start painting "American Eagle" on the side of AE numbered aircraft? So, by using your argument, you're "stealing" their flying as well. Seriously, is this High School?

Seriously, we have ZERO control over what and where we fly. If we do, I'm assigning myself better overnights. ;-)