As to the original question...

I think that a young, single, lineholder at a better regional airline can have a pretty good lifestyle (at a bottom-feeder, it's going to blow any way you slice it).

That said, there's a catch...

Most folks enjoy it for the first year or so. After that, things change...if you are family and friend oriented it gets a little harder.

The ideal person for the regional life would be a bohemian wildchild who can find friends and fun wherever he/she happens to be. Of course these folks often have conflicts with the requirements of the airline job (responsibility, drugs).

The problem is that the personality traits that lead one into flying usually mean spouse and family are in the future. What happens if you get stuck at the regional? Well if you're senior enough, wife works, can live in domicile, and hold locals/standups it might not be so bad...until your regional loses the domicile, loses the contract, furloughs, etc.

Since there is no longer any reasonably safe assumption that you will advance beyond the regional, you have to carefully consider MULTIPLE career paths, how likely they are, what you have to do to get there, and if you would even want to do them:
- Regional Lifer
- Major
- Corporate/Fractional
- Unable to progress beyond regional, change careers.

If I am able to hang on and not be furloughed I can kiss my great QOL and daytrips goodbye

He is right...that is the second highest paying line in EWR. Now this works best if you live somewhere close to short final for 22L, but he is right. I commute and block 75-80 and get paid 85-90 for $40-45K. But what do I know... I have those nasty little problems that a fun night with the wife bring about and I would not trade 'em for anything.

He's right, he could very well make $56K this year. I'm on reserve and I'll probably eclipse $40K easily, $48K if I try. If I get furloughed and go back to my instructing gig I'll make a little more too. :cool:

How? Really... How?

You know how all you other regional guys roll your eyes when XJT guys talk about "work rules" being even more important than pay rates? Work rules (getting paid for far more hours than you actually fly)...that's how.

I'm not qualified being happily married (even when I was 'regional'), but simple answer. Good <g>

Life would be sweet if I wasnt getting A#$ raped by student loan payments each month.

Note: I didnt read through 5 pages of everyones storys..heres mine though.

Im 26, single with one car payment that is really cheap. Have the basement of my parents house...doesnt really matter im never home. ok maybe one day a week just to wash clothes pay bills catch up on a few little things. Otherwise im with friends in Iowa or Texas just chillin drinking large amounts of beer. I make enough money to live and still have a tad bit left over each month to save. Life is pretty good. Im on reserve but pretty senior so i dont fly all that much. I have 11 days off but feels more like 20.....knock on wood. The only thing that sucks is crew scheduling calling, the thought of not having a job, and the stupid $9hr employees we have.

At $34 an hour (assuming he is on 2nd year FO pay and still on reserve) and on reserve how could you make $48K?


That's roughly 1400 hours of credit. I repeat.. How?

Probably includes per-diem.

You're really not getting it are you?! You even quoted the guy who mentioned work rules and you're STILL confused!?:confused: Once again, *cups hands around mouth and speaks loudly and slowly* WORK RULES! Like getting paid 150% for working over vacation, like 100% deadhead pay, like minimum pay for each duty day (trip rig), like 100% cancellation pay, like 150% pay for any trip that extends beyond originally scheduled termination time, redflag pickups, being FBOd (check airman trips pulled off your schedule for others who need training) etc etc. You know, all those things that make a contract worth the paper its printed on. Reference my earlier post, I made roughly $53K (gross pay minus per diem) my second year at XJT flying 988.7 hours. That means I averaged about $53.60/hour. But how is that possible...it says year 2 pay is $34.45/hr!? WORK RULES! I saw one FO last year who credited 217 hours in one MONTH! Now THAT'S working the system! So as you can see, hourly rate x hours worked does NOT equal yearly pay. Your mileage may vary but read your contract, there might be some interesting stuff in there. Talk to guys who are good at it. If your negotiating committee is worth anything they probably put some good stuff in there for you to game the system.

1400 hours of credit... not really. Maybe 700-750 flight hours for the year.

Think Getting paid 100 hours at $34/hr = $3,400/month = $40,800
Add $600 per diem/month = $7,200/year (I've made over $700 in some months)
All equals = $48,000
Don't see why I shouldn't include per diem in that amount, it's compensation and its tax free!

Funny thing about the 100 hours of pay is it is probably around 70-80 hours of flight time. Work rules did that. As Saab does it, he can pull in over 120 hours a month due being a line holder. This is with at least 12 days off and only seeing about a 5 hr/day average credit for the month. If I were a line holder I could get my credit up to 6-7 hr/day average.

This is all without our 401K contributions either. As of right now the company gives us 2.5% for putting in nothing. Then they match up to 4% of what we put in. This equates to 6.5% from the company for putting in 4%.

After talking to some pilots at the majors, they can really jack their pay up with their work rules.

I see what you are saying and believe me when I say I understand work rules, but Perdiem is not INCOME. If the IRS does not dip their hand in it then its not income. I also did not think on reserve you could play the system and consistently break guarantee (to the point of 100 hours of flight credit).

ummm....

I guess that $4,000 I've made so far hasn't gone into my bank account?

I'm confused why you don't think per diem doesn't count towards income. So if airline 'A' pays you $6/hr for per diem and $32/hr flight time vs. airline 'B' that pays you $1/hr and $35/hr, you would go to airline 'B'?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but per diem does count towards your income and it is the best kind, It's Tax Free!

A lot of regionals get paid per diem for day trips. Some however don't pay per diem for day trips, so their income is drastically lower.

For some reason you are very resistant to the fact that some of us are making $40K-$55K on 2nd year pay and get 12 days off/month, why?

:confused::rolleyes: no such thing as rewinding in ANY hotel room. That same hotel room will irk you someday rook.

Because the numbers you put up are not realistic with all the other BS you claim. You claimed in a previous post to hold 17 days off a month, now you are on reserve. You claim to be able to make $48K/yr on second year pay yet you are still on reserve and somehow seem to get 100+ hour CREDIT months and fly 700-750 a year. Thats first off ALOT of flying on reserve and second, thats almost 2x the credit for the work (we have established the need for well over 1000 hours of CREDIT even if you want to count perdiem. I understand work rules and such but for it to come across as 2x the flying for the ENTIRE year is a bit much. I understand 150%, trip rig, duty rig, but 200% of everything you do ON RESERVE with 17 days off... umm.. other XJTers have already raised the BS flag. If you make $48K great! If you are on the charter side and a lineholder/ "air wh*re" who loves work and no social life thats all your decision.


Perdiem- Travel Expenses and Per Diem Update

here is the short end:

The employer may exclude from the employees' taxable income all amounts that the IRS deems substantiated (i.e., amounts up to the applicable federal M&IE rate). Amounts excluded do not count as taxable wages on the pilot's Form W-2.

If you have an overnight is not-taxable up to the M&IE rate (which every regional is below- just look at perdiem for the mainline folks), day trips are income and taxed. If you want to pay taxes on all the money that hits your paycheck then GO AHEAD, but if you do some research before you type things you may find that just because it hits you checking account it is not "income" to the IRS. Example: Do you count your uniform allowance (company gives you money each month for drye cleaning,etc) as income?

Where did I quote in this that I had 17 days off on reserve? I did state when I held a line I had 17 days off, but when I stated I could credit up to $48K/yr that was with 12 days off on reserve. And that was stating if "I work hard". I stated I am on pace to easily break $40K/year with 90 credit hour months. Saab is on pace for the mid $50K/yr, which is very believable.

100 hrs of credit * $34/hr = $3,400 + $600 per diem = $4,000/month * 12 months = $48,000/year

As for really thinking we can't credit 100 hrs/month at ExpressJet on reserve, think again, most of the reserves right now are in the 80's to 90's. With a little perseverance, you can get yourself up to 100 here. We have lots of trips that credit 5-8 hours a day. Remember, this is what we fly at ExpressJet, on the COEX side, not what you fly at your place. Calling my statements BS, while you don't work here is quit hilarious, since I am making $3,500-$4,000/month right now.

I don't really know where you are coming from stating per diem isn't income. If a company paid you $30/hr for per diem and $5/hr for flight time, would you say that person makes less than someone making $1/hr for per diem and $25/hr for flight time?

Per Diem is income. It's actually super income :D because its tax free

Well I don't know anthony.. You seem to get most of the pinnacle threads LOCKED and you don't work here. Read the ALPA page on perdiem. Congrats on your work rules and good contract. How far down on the list are you?

Oh I get it. This has nothing to do with how much we make at ExpressJet, but you some how getting on me for the Pinnacle threads. I have stated it before and will state it again: "I am rooting for Pinnacle to get a industry leading TA". I never was angry with Pinnacle pilots, I was just disagreeing with a post with regards of some things said towards a major airline group.

It appears you guys are all about going after those you think you know. You do realize a screenname is a screenname? Have you ever thought people used alias on here for a reason? We are all in this together, this recent movement to attack people personally needs to stop. Things said on a message board can come off so many ways to different people since they are not said in person.

Back onto the per diem issue. If I was offered $100/hr per diem and no pay per flight time, I would think that would be a sweet deal, wouldn't you? It's all compensation no matter how you define it.

You guys are getting too far away from the original point of this thread and are arguing over semantics.

Income is defined by the IRS as the amount you can be taxed upon.

Income is defined by most pilots as how much money appears in their paycheck each pay cycle.

Yes per diem is money that is supposed to reimburse your expenses while on a trip (ie dinner, brewskies, coffee, etc). But most people pay via cash or credit card. Where does that cash or credit card payment come from? Your checking account or something of that nature.

I give credit to someone that can milk $56k (both per diem and taxable income) second year F/O out of their contract.


Back to the original point...as a single person with limited responsibilites (bills :mad:) going and traveling and living out of your roll aboard it's hard to beat. If you like doing that, it kinda reminds me of that commercial about that guy being a couch surfer. (different city different buddy's couch). The only downside is that it may get old fast with friends with "real jobs" that don't wanna go out on a Tuesday night (cuz we're always working weekends).

Such is the life...:D

A regional is what you make of it. If you keep thinking about where you'll end up tomorrow you'll be really p!ssed off with where you're at today. Make a plan for the future but live in the now. I've partied like a rockstar and love it.

Really, the only part of this job that sucks the life right out of me is getting paired up with a moron. I'm all about having a good time, but d*mn. Thank god for the avoid fly with bidding option.

I don't claim to know XJet, that is why I asked for an explanation!

You want to tell ME about a screen name? I made mine blatantly obvious, in hindsight I shouldn't have because I can't joke around too hard without having to watch who I offend. Of all people YOU should be more worried. The only reason I know your name is Anthony (and have your last name) from UND is because a FEW of your fellow "coworkers" sent me your stuff and seemed quite upset that you made the Xjet group look bad on a public forum. You made the name for yourself by BASHING another pilot with your own name intermixed in the past. We will leave this topic at rest, no sense locking up a perfectly good thread.

All I have asked is to explain how you can make $48K/yr on reserve when getting paid $34. Simple question and you explained it, but counting on 100 hour credit months and counting Perdiem within your income- which is your call and you answered the question. I really was going to say nice things after hearing your explanation but the personal attacks prevented that within my psyche.

You need to look at the perdiem rules because you are covered up to 70% MI&E and the perdiem IS taxable income if you do not overnight somewhere. To be more realistic would you rather have a 10% higher perdiem rate or a 10% higher payrate. The answer to that would depend on how much you are away from home vs. how much flight credit you get. Perdiem is designed to offset the costs of being on the road (mainly food) and is not designed to "supplement income" though many/most do LOOK at perdiem as income.

I know of only 1 moron that makes it into my "avoid with". Where ya based?

Well, I get paid tomorrow, and as I was looking at my Check, I looked at my YTD pay, (which is the 1st 6 months of this year), My total YTD Compensation, is $29,765.35



Just figured I would share that with you guys........
Its funny I am still broke :(

Well get rid of that car "mr. fast and the furious", duh.

2nd yr fo xjt: ytd compensation for me is 26,900... I did not work over my vacations. went to ireland for a week, took two other separate week long vacations, but live in base.

Very possible to make bank here but you have to work the system. To the guy who said only three of his flights have been cancelled here... where the hell are you based? You can trash newark all you want but it is a friggin goldmine with our contract. If you dont expect to be home on the last day on time you will save yourself a boatload of stress but better yet pick up a trip starting early the next day, get a domicile rest issue and keep the RA day + pay.

seriously, what a headache, the heat from the Turbo melted my AC line, so now I have no A/C.....what a mess

I think there is enough speculation on whether or not the 56K is a real projection of SAAB's pay for this year. There are lots of ways to figure your income, and I think people should stop trying to disprove it...

As far as pay goes, everyone has to realize that what you get paid is a lot/a little only when compared to your lifestyle. There are plenty of people (myself included) who are happy to live cheaply. For the single person, this is very easy to control (if you have a shred of self-control). And when your pay does increase, either after first year pay is over or when you upgrade, you can choose to increase your savings, or up your standard of living. There are a number of choices to make, but make no mistake, the pay is decent (should be higher) and liveable.

Another major consideration is the schedule that many people have alluded to. Airline pilots are NOT home every night, weekend off types. There are times in your career where you may enjoy those perks, based on your seniority, but don't expect it, especially early.

What is that worth to you?

Personally, I think this job is great for single people, and there is a certain level you should probably attain before a family begins if you want to avoid the worst headaches. It may be very tough otherwise, especially if you are the only breadwinner.

either way you look at it we are all under compensated!!! 50-60K should be the norm for fisrst year pay.

There come's a time when you'd rather walk your property line and water your tomatos than spend so much time on the road doing nothing productive in any sense of the word. It's the cumulative effect of just sitting around, not even being able to do a load of wash.

Unfortunately, many pilots are unwilling or unable to make the break because they're beginning to make okay money and can't change industry or careers and make similar money elsewhere because they have no other marketable skills. So, at say, 37 years of age, they're stuck looking at more than two more decades of dragging themselves from Point A to Point B, over and over, only to end the day waiting on airport transportation to haul them to another miserable hotel.

As you get older, and I don't mean when you've retired, you value your time more and more because the years go by much too fast. It's a no brainer that I'd rather spend time tinkering and puttering around my two homes, than to profess excitement at an 0530 continental breakfast at a Holiday Inn Express.

That was a funny one EYELS. I remember the other week telling a Capt. how great I thought their breakfast was at the Express, hahaha...

So you are willing to stop the bashing back and forth and name calling?

I work for the same company as SAAB, and just for perspective, I'm on schedule to make $31,000 before taxes. (2nd year FO also)

I have never broken min guarantee, and I get about $80-$120 / month in per diem.

If you can pick up open time and hold a line, you can do alright on second year pay. But it sucks to still be struggling so hard on second year pay.

Actually I think whats more important is to reduce all your debt as much as you can before getting your regional job.

Great post - describes me to a tee. I'd like this job more, lousy pay excepted - if I could be home every night, and live at home and not have to commute. Flying itself can be fun, but living on the road sucks horribly and the thought of several more decades of it is like a kick to the gut!

I don't think I have ever seen the 2 opposing points of view expressed so succinctly.

I have had both of these thoughts before. I guess maybe it's normal, and not multiple personalities!

Live in base. I've figured I'd make about 30% more if I lived in base at Chautauqua. However not worth it for me.

Living in bas, especially a base nobody likes (EWR), is where this job really works for me. I can hold line numbers around the 50's, and I am bidding in the low 100's. I am waiting what kind of terrible QOL the fall brings, but either way, I enjoyed it while it lasted